The difference would be that sacks generally aren't exposed to somewhat chlorinated tap water for over 3000 hours of operation :-)
The fans in those things are quite powerful. If something comes off it'll fly out the outlet with gusto. Seen it happen. Afterwards I taught our Rottweiler not to hold his head into the cool stream of air and let his ears flap in the breeze.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
During dry nights that's also possible here. My wife started complaining that it's too cold, looked at thermometer ... 65F or so.
During the day that would require a two-stage evap cooler where the first stage has just a heat exchanger that won't increase the moisture of the air. I have seen such units but they are massive. That would require a major reinstall and moving the big heater-A/C combo. Which would require removing part of our deck. Which in turn would require ... naah, not gonna do that.
It just baffles me how antiquated regular A/C technology is. Hardly any serious progress in decades. The government spends (or sometimes wastes) tons of "stimulus" money on the smart grid and obviously completely lost sight where the real heavy hitters in consumption are.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
I found that the "dry" part of Summer it's easiest to just turn the pump in the cooler *off* and use the cooler to push the moist air out of the house -- replacing it with dryer air drawn in from outside.
E.g., even 80 degree outdoor air feels very comfortable at 10% RH.
The "smart grid" is just another case of an industry failing to keep up with its investments over time (no competition/incentive?).
What amazes me is why someone hasn't come up with a reliable, affordable, ~5KW Stirling engine *just* to run the ACbrrr (*directly* without two sets of conversion between). And, harvesting any "surplus" energy available to offset other loads (e.g., electrically/thermally)
(
re
Jorg,
do you have a bleed kit on your evap cooler?
A bleed kit takes about 10% of the circulating water and dumps it out through a small hose to the ground. This provides an exit path for the minerals so that the concentration does not build up indefinitely.
Without a bleed kit, minerals go in but they have no way to get out, the water evaporates leaving ALL the minerals in the cooler.
With a bleed kit, the concentration of minerals reaches an equilibrium that is a function of what percentage of water is dumped. It helps the pads and cooler last a longer. Use the dump water to water the plants, don't put it in the pool.
Mark
Yup. I learned that quickly, when the night looks like it'll be less than 80F it's best to run it "fan only" and on low. But after doing that for many days it can be best to turn it to "pump-only" (no fan) before the next full run and then dump the water. The pads act as somewhat of a filter but all the dust and pollen has to be flushed out.
I am tempted to install a valve on the dump line so I can operate it without having to open the cooler.
There's a lot of things that could be done but aren't :-(
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
I don't have a bleed kit but our water is fairly low in minerals. The pads have lasted two seasons now before they turned gray over the recent winter. However, I do regularly dump the water so no mold and stuff accumulates. When I do that there isn't much visible gunk in the water, looks rather crisp and clear.
What I am wondering about is whether the little soap chunks ("Fresh Air") are really needed. I ran it without the first few months until a friend said I should throw in a quarter of those every month or two. But it seems to not do much other than sludge up the pads a bit.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
I changed the cooler so the pump, fan and "blige" are separately controlled. E.g., before starting the fan, you want to be sure the pads are thoroughly saturated (when trying to "cool"). You also want to be able to periodically purge the water that has been sitting in the cooler pan (reduces calcifications on the pads) -- ours is plumbed out to the irrigation system. And, you want to be able to run the fan without anything else.
If I could come up with a way to change the direction of the fan (and dynamically alter the housing at the same time... barometric dampers?) so I could use it to *pull* air into the house it would be a real win!
This just seems like a no-brainer! Big market (anyplace that is sunny and, coincidentally, *HOT*!). No need to convert to electricity and then *back* to motion. etc.
If the sun isn't out (overcast, night), less *need* (in general) for the ACbrrrr...
In Tucson those bricks were worthless. They supposedly combated the growth of mold/mildew/algae but I never had that problem. Could have been the climate and the lack of spores - I donno. Your situation may be different. I agree with Mark 100% on the bleeder, unless you're rich enough to be feeding the cooler distilled water. ;~) Once upon a time a coworker fed his cooler softened water and the resulting crystal needles broke off and were blown into the house. I don't recall if he had a bleeder on it. Art
There's an ancient IBM joke to the effect of:
"How was God able to make the universe in only six days?"
"No installed base."
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
-- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 845-480-2058 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net
Hmm, they pretty much come that way already except for the bilge which is super low tech. Pull tubing piece, let it gurgle out of the unit, put piece back in.
Personally I wouldn't do that. We know people who have whole-house fans. Those things pull an incredible amount of fine dust, dirt pollen and pine dust into the house. Not just bad for allergic folks but it makes stuff really dirty.
Believe it or not but you can get a tax incentive for a whole-house fan but _not_ for a swamp cooler. I think we need more engineers on the hill in Washington D.C.
[...]-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
No. We have a pump that actively *drains* the cooler. So, instead of using a "bleeder" (that continuously drains a fixed portion of the recirculated water), we actively pump water out of the cooler "on demand".
So, the controller can drain the cooler (partially or *completely*) while the blower is off (no risk of blowing hot/dry air into the house), then, refill the cooler to resume normal operation.
Of course, you can also drain (varying amounts) *while* the cooler is in operation -- as long as you don't let the recirculating pump "starve" (pads dry out).
The differences in the control algorithm are trivial. But, it saves trips up to the roof to rearrange the plumbing! :>
Yes, when I lived in Denver we had one. Remarkably efficient way to cool the house quickly (when outdoor temps were lower than indoor -- like coming home from work!). Note that running the cooler without the pump exposes you to similar dust/allergen issues.
The reason the cooler no longer sees any use, here, is exactly because of the allergens (though I think I would welcome the cool, moist feel of that air in spite of any allergen risks... it *really* feels good when the RH is really low!)
Here, there is pressure to cut down on the use of coolers. Water being a scarce resource. I guess they figure electricity
*isn't*? :>
Agreed. I think if the cooler sees only sporadic use it may be more of an issue. Or, if it isn't drained for the "off-season".
But, I've used sacrificial anodes in the past to cut down on corrosion in the cooler body, itself. Given time, you *know* that mechanism is going to succumb to the continual presence of water...
A simple valve could do that job. One issue with evap coolers is that their design is rather crude so there's no indentation for the drain connection. The plastic nut carries so there's a 1/4" or so obstacle which holds back much of the sludge (but there shouldn't be).
Ours is on the deck so I can easily do this by hand. No problem to automate that, I'd just snatch on of the MSP430s I have here. Or a CD4060. But I prefer not to have electronics where not really needed.
Actually I found it still filters. When I ran it air-only for a few weeks and then turned on the pump a ton of dirt flushed into the reservoir. So I dumped it.
I guess one could place an extra filter on the intake side.
Our cooler barely makes a dent in the water bill. Of course, much of that is taxes and they want to double those now.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Not drained? Yuck. It would be a cesspool or mosquito larvae and stuff in there after a few months.
Where did you get the anodes?
[...]-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Lots of people don't take care of their homes :> Again, keep in mind that most coolers, here, are roof-mounted.
Mosquito larvae will be present in just a few days with the water stagnant (and "accessible"). If I don't get around to draining our water harvesting containers "soon" after a heavy rain (of course, you don't NEED the water after a heavy rain!! :< ), you can see the little critters swimming around in there!
No idea -- it was years ago on the previous cooler. Haven't gone looking for them for the current cooler (though I probably *should* -- *if* we put it back in service)
I recall having to drive around town quite a bit to round up various parts for the original (poorly maintained) cooler. I probably stumbled upon them at one of the supply places.
If you rely on gravity feed to do the draining! I regulate the on-time of the drain pump as a function of the on-time of the recirculate pump (i.e., assuming water is *consumed* at a constant rate proportional to running time -- no doubt only good as a zero-th order approximation but monitoring water
*consumption* is hard without instrumentation). And, separately, maintain a "purge interval" that I use to trigger a flushing of all the water based on consumption (but only when the cooler is idle)I had originally thought of putting a valve in the output of a *single* pump -- "recirculate vs. divert" -- but opted for the dual pumps, instead.
Our cooler has the drain area recessed (when viewed from above). But, the fitting *in* that hole still presents an impediment to draining (though only a few tablespoons). Biggest issue is ensuring the cooler is perfectly level as the bottom of the pan doesn't seem to have much of a draft angle on it...
Our electronics are indoors. Just wires to the pumps/fan (110 and
220, respectively).I think you end up with too much static pressure across any filter, there. That's a *lot* of air trying to be drawn in and the filter needs to be reasonably fine. It would also probably get clogged often (the streets here turn yellow with the over-abundance of pollen)
Here, other utilities (e.g., sewer) key off your metered water consumption (i.e., they want you to think that all the water you use ends up going through the sanitary treatment facility -- even though much of it is consumed, used for irrigation, cooling, etc.).
We did the math one year and the airconditioner was costing just about the same to operate as the cooler had been (both being new appliances, at the time). Since the allergen issue was a negative for the cooler, the ACbrrr won that decision!
Unfortunately, the ACbrrr has a hard time giving the same level of comfort as the cooler in the *dry* months.
Yeah, sure, but the gravity constant hasn't changed much in the last few thousand years :-)
I've done the drill a lot: Open unit, put in temporary splash plate, pull stop, let it all gargle out without shutting the inlet (so that there is some forced flushing or dirt at the bottom). It always takes the same amount of time, a valve would be just fine.
The mechanical engineering on those things could have been a tad more smart. Like that draft angle. It ain't rocket science.
Sure. But it usually takes only one thunderstorm or a big surge and ... BZZZT.
Pressure is not an issue I believe. The filter in the central furnace duct work is much smaller yet the CFM isn't much lower. But if your pollen load is high you'd need one that either automatically washes or it'll be another chore on your monthly honey-do list.
Sometimes our whole deck is covered yellow yet there's nothing of that in the house even when the evap cooler ran all day. Sometimes you can see the huge brownish puffs waft in from Yosemite. Can be seen from our living room windows and that sight makes every allergy sufferer cringe.
Same here but they only use winter consumption to set that sewer quantity. I bet it's the same in your case. You could ask them.
I thought you guys live in CA which is basically PGE or SDE monopoly. Unless you are lucky and have a muni utility. PGE has those stupid inverse tiers. If you run the A/C you are in tier 3 and higher in no time and then the kWh price goes to 300% and up. It'll eat you alive.
-- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Wait until you find a bit of aspen shavings clogging your drain! :> With 22 or 23 sq ft of pad and a 1HP motor dragging air through it, there was always *something* plugged *somewhere*! That's why I added the second pump feeding the spider -- so we were *sure* the pads were always soaked regardless of what bits of cruft got stuck in the supply/drip lines!
It's worse than that! Ours has a "dry side" and a "wet side" (previous cooler had pads on all four sides -- downdraft. This has pads on *one* side, but still downdraft). Premise is that the dry side never has to deal with all that water in the basin (previous cooler had the outlet *surrounded* by the water basin).
But, if water *gets* into the dry side (e.g., microbursts pushing rain water in through seams in the access doors), there are vent holes to prevent it from ponding in the dry side. Wonderful! Thoughtful!
Except, the water dripping through those vent holes clings to the underside of the housing and follows the draft angle -- towards the air outlet! At which point, it cheerfully follows the ductwork *into* the interior household ductwork!
I.e., while they thought ahead and recessed the *drain* connection, they didn't ALSO dimple the vent holes to prevent the water from following the skin!
That;s true of anything. You could go the route of many of the "poor man" controls -- literally switching the line voltage *in* the "wall unit".
There is a *big* difference between our furnace's air volume output and the cooler's! Cooler will change the air in the house in 3 or
4 minutes. The furnace takes 4 or 5 times that amount of time.Exactly. And with it on the roof, I have no desire to be traipsing around up there "on demand"!
Sure. Doesn't help if you are watering citrus trees, though! They use winter consumption to determine what your needs *should* be. So, if your summer usage goes considerably higher than that, you pay a premium.
No; So. AZ.
Recall, the primary (comfort) role of the ACbrrr is dehumidification. In Monsoon, drop the effective dewpoint 10 degrees and things feel comfortable really fast!
OTOH, in Summer (dry), the effects of humidity are less significant. It might be 110+ outside but without direct sun exposure, you can be "comfortable" (not true of with 60 and 70 degree dewpoints like midwest, northeast, etc.).
And, *far* less work required to remove heat from the air when it's not also trying to pull the water out!
[I looked at the math once and the figures are alarming! I.e., if you could figure out how to dehumidify the air *before* it passes to the ACbrrrr, your energy consumption cuts in half (or so)!]
Yup. I had 2 smaller pumps on my main cooler, *and* 2 spiders. No need for any check valves. I always knew when one got plugged as cooling effectivness went down, but it never got to where both spiders got plugged at the same time. Art
I replaced the "star" shaped spider with a "big loop" that ran around the perimeter of the cooler (pads on 4 sides). Then, fed it from two opposing corners (behind check valves).
I found that if a pump died, it acted as a "drain" for the system. Of course, if you feed two *independant* spiders, then you wouldn't have that problem (since the outputs of the two pumps share nothing in common)
Coolers are delightful little *imps*! They keep finding clever ways of screwing you!
Coming from New England, it took me an entire season to wrap my head around the very *concept* of a giant HUMIDIFIER somehow making things *better* in the Summer! And, a fair bit of head scratching wondering why setting the *control* cooler didn't always result in the *house* getting cooler! :<
If the allergy issue ever goes away, I would like to explore algorithms to intelligently trade off cooler vs. ACbrrr based on observations of current conditions. I.e., if you *know* it is going to get to 115 today and, given the current dewpoint, can't expect the cooler to ever bring the indoor temperature down to 80, then *don't* run the cooler at all -- instead, concentrate on drying the house out so it will be easier to keep it comfortable WHEN the temps climb to those levels!
(I'd also like to explore a ground-sourced heat pump as an option for precooling the air to the ACbrrrr...)
Meanwhile, we'll survive with the ACbrrr (95 outside, today;
75 inside and still haven't turned on the ACbrrrr for this season)ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.