Lab supply acting up

In Arizona (aka God's Country), it would just smell like BBQ ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

I took down one of the (I am not familiar with the native species) in front of the house. I waited until late Fall (deciduous) when I wouldn't have to deal with all the foliage. I trimmed the lower boughs to ensure the static loading of the tree would cause it to fall away from the house (40' tree 10' from the house).

Before I could fell the tree, I was called away for a health emergency. When I returned a few months later, the tree had already leafed out. Unfortunately, this changed the static load so the tree now wanted to fall *into* the house. (lots of leaves on small branches weigh a lot more than *few* leaves on BIG branches).

I had no desire to wait another 10 months to continue the exercise as originally designed. So, fastened a pull rope

20' up the trunk and had two groups standing in the street pulling it that way while I made the cuts.

Did the face cuts. Pretty severe as I *really* wanted to encourage the tree to fall *that* way! :>

Started the back cut. Quarter of the way through. Third. Half. Hmmm... nothing's moving here! This isn't a good sign!

Assured by my rope teams that there was tension on the lines, I dropped the saw and threw my weight onto one of the lines to

*force* the tree over. I'm convinced that not doing so would have caused the tree to fall backwards (no joy, there!)

Ha! No thanks! After five 18" dia stumps, I've learned about all I *ever* want to know about efficiently removing stumps! :>

We have a 24" dia pine out front that I will hire someone to fell. Too many ways it can twist on its way down and very few of those would be "without consequence". The weight distribution is so skewed (looks like a 'Y' where one half of the Y is almost vertical) that I doubt I could cut a good enough dutchman to do the trick! (and you only get one try :> )

Shovel. Watched a neighbor pull up the gas line with a back hoe and figured that's an expensive mistake I would care NOT to make! When I pulled the last big stump out of its hole (friend had an electric winch on his diesel), I saw the further wisdom of this "manual" approach -- the root system had found the ceramic sewer pipe so too much force would have left me with a plumbing nightmare!

And, it is rewarding to accomplish something like that -- instead of copping out and just paying someone (and ending up dealing with *his* mistakes!).

Though I still haven't been able to understand why that more

*strenuous* effort has less effect on your body (weight, etc.) than something simple, like *walking*: do a 4 mile walk and I don't even break into a sweat -- yet lose weight rapidly; spend 10 minutes digging and it feels like 4 hours! (and NO weight consequences)

We have lots of clay in the soil. I've learned the easy way to quickly remove a root system is to find (hope) an area reasonably clear of roots. Dig down 2-3 ft and as wide a hole as possible without root interference (no need to be close to the main trunk).

Once the hole is constrained by roots on each side, use a high pressure nozzle on a garden hose (not a power washer) to scour the dirt away from the roots -- exposing their lengths along the edges of the hole.

Cut each root at the farthest extremes. Enlarge your hole (with shovel) now that the root is no longer in the way.

The reason you want a *deep* hole to begin with is to provide a catch basin for all that water -- that must drain before you can repeat this trick! :> As you progress around the stump, the "basin" gets larger so the going gets quicker (though the time it takes for the hole to dry out also increases as the soil becomes saturated with repeated "refills")

Don't they sell stumping powder in that pansy town of yours? ;)

A friend of mine has an old Monsanto (iirc) white paper from the 1920s that talks about the agricultural benefits of breaking up hardpan with dynamite. It even calculates the equivalent amount of fertilizer left by the residual unexploded nitrates.

Very amusing to read today.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Just a tripod and a winch is enough. I have a winch that can lift 5 (metric) tons. So far I did not come across a tree that could withstand that.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

I've used an old-fangled bumper jack standing on a handy piece of steel I-beam, hooked onto a chain wrapped around the trunk. Works a treat for smallish trees, but slow.

Very apropos for this subthread. ;>)

Mark L. Fergerson

When the *stump* weighs 1200 pounds, I think you'll find its not quite as easy as that!

Houses in North Scottsdale are one acre, horse privileges (i.e., barns), so structures too close for that.

Charcoal doesn't make much in the way of flames, so doesn't draw attention (particularly since every acre is fenced or walled. If you move the coals around daily, you get a nice even burn-down. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Works for weenie trees. Around here a mesquite's roots might extend under your neighbor's house, which would draw the wrong kind of attention :-( ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

I heard somewhere, (most likely from tree hole diggers), that when planting a tree the hole should cost x10 as much as the tree.

George H.

You should see our tree/tree-hole machines. They come by your place and dig a vee-shaped hole, 10' in diameter and 6' deep, in one nasty hydraulic motion.

Then they go to the tree farm with the same machine and dig up an orange tree with the same blades.

Then this whole mechanism comes back to your place and drops the tree into a perfect, form-fitting, hole ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

No, those calculations come from a "Phd", which you can also rent now and then. Lots of them around just begging to be put to work! :)

Jamie

It sure *seems* that way! :>

We have a lot of clay in the soil, here. So, when you dig a hole, you are effectively creating a "flower pot" in which you will be planting your tree/shrub/etc. So, you ask yourself how big a pot do you need to support a ~20ft orange tree (and hope to bear fruit prolificly)?

You can buy a small tree for ~$30. They'll charge you $75 to put it in the ground (remember: green side up!). But, that will be a "token" planting -- "dig a hole twice the diameter of the rootball" -- and hardly conducive to good growth, etc.

A neighbor plated a lime 3 or 4 years ago. It is now about 2 ft tall and 3 ft wide. It was probably half that size when he put it in the ground! He'll be *retired* before he sees any fruit...

Wanna bet the lime I *just* planted yields some token fruit *this* year and a "respectible crop" next year? (the previous lime tree produced 400-500 large limes in each bloom -- so much that we had to give away garbage bags full of fruit in addition to all that we *froze*)

The new lemon tree already has several golf-ball sized fruit on it and it's been in the ground less time than the lime!

Next house we will look for an even smaller lot. And, someplace much cooler -- with *real* winters! (And *two* levels of basement!! :> :> )

Well, 1200 pounds is little over 10% of the rated load of my winch. No problemo!

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

In my experience the roots just snap right under the trunk. That is the place where they get pulled out of shape and get weakened. A tree has (relatively) very little resistance against being pulled up.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe on your side of the pond.

Desert plants tend to resistant to anything/anyone ;-)

My strongest trees at the old place, were the ones where the builder (dumb-ass) tried to clear the desert by burning the brush.

There still standing, and that was 42 years ago that they were burned. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.

That's the weight of the stump with all the roots cut and all the soil removed. I.e., just the dead weight of the stump. My buddy originally offered to pull the stump with his 15,000 pound electric winch. Then, as I started exposing the root structure, had second thoughts as to how effective a solution that would be.

In hindsight, his brute force approach -- had it worked (recall I put 7 tons of soil *into* the hole to make up the deficit) -- would have cost us the sewer line at the very least. Despite the large, cleared hole, dragging the severed stump out left us with lifted sidewalk slabs and a deep gouge (2 ft) in the lawn as the stump proved more resilient than the "hard pan" soil.

(...)

Exciting times. :)

Uh. Oh.

Embarrassing talk with your insurance guy too.

Aw shoot. :)

Somewhere on Youtube there's a sequence showing a team clobbering their own pickup with a fallen palm tree. 'Palms don't look that tall when they are vertical.

"Scoopersize"!

I don't think there is much 'aerobic' about shoveling. :)

Oh yeah. I know about clay. We have *both* kinds.

Super sticky or rock hard.

Clay is like that.

I tend to make a large hole when removing old fence post footings, too.

If I don't refill and compact my fence post holes I notice that my concrete bill goes 'way up. :)

--Winston

(...)

With pomegranates, I'd be concerned about leaving much root stock in the ground. The stuff has amazing survival skills!

They are good tools, for sure.

--Winston

A neighbor felled one -- into his swimming pool! Apparently, palms tend to act like sponges. Took a small army to drag it back out of the water!

Ages ago ("summer camp" when in scouting), I was on a crew rerunning the electric services around the campgrounds. One of the guys was at the top of a ladder inspecting the tie to the tree (why use poles when you have all those

*trees* conveniently lined up?).

Another crew up the road felled a tree that "took a twist" on the way down. Pulled the service right off the tree above our guy's head! Time for a clean set of underwear... :>

It *feels* like it is far more aerobic than walking. E.g., even walking at 4MPH, I can bearly hit my "target zone" for pulse rate at the end of an hour. Yet, heft half a yard of soil out of a hole and your heart is

*racing*!

I have a "caliche bar" -- a 1.25" dia bar 6 ft long with a

3" wide chisel tip. Works wonders at "cutting" through the clay! *Throw* the bar into the soil, then bend over and lift the chunk of clay out in one piece.

When planting, I take all the soil out of the hole and "throw it away". Then, refill the hole with a blend of topsoil and "potting soil" (one year, purchased a dumptruck full of "potting soil" :> )