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Interupting xenon flash current ?

I was reading about how autoexposure and speed flash units work and found out that in modern units IGBTs are used to turn off the tube current at the proper time. I scrounged up the parts to flash a tube and measured the current pulse during discharge. For my test setup I measured the the current peak to be about 1900A and am fairly certain that number is pretty close. The current was above 1000A for about 6us and still at 300A after

200us then finally decayed to 0 after about 600us. How is it possible for any reasonably priced/sized IGBT to survive under that kind of stress? I was going to try interupting the pulse, but the only IGBT I have is one I took from a dead microwave oven inverter and it's only rated at 150A for 1ms. My test setup isn't all that powerful, only about 37J (600uf flash cap charged to 350v). I'm also curious about why it takes 20us from the time of the HV trigger to the time the tube starts to conduct. It may not be, but that just seems like and awfully long time. Not enough trigger voltage maybe? Also, it takes another 15us for the current to reach it's peak. Unfortunately I don't have any data for the flash tube. It is fairly large, 80mm long and 8mm dia. The trigger is a thin wire spirally wrapped the entire length of the tube.

Mike

If there is no absolute truth then nothing can be known.

Reply to
Mike
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On a sunny day (Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:52:21 -0500) it happened Mike wrote in :

that in modern units IGBTs are

to flash a tube and measured

current peak to be about 1900A and am

about 6us and still at 300A after

reasonably priced/sized IGBT to

but the only IGBT I have is one I

My test setup isn't all that

about why it takes 20us from the

but that just seems like and

15us for the current to reach

large, 80mm long and 8mm dia.

I always tought a SCR, not an IGBT, was fired parallel to the flash tube. And the flash tube is connected via a small inductor to the cap, the inductor limiting the current rise. But it has been at least 20 years ago I looked.... Anyways SCRs can have huge peak currents.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

that in modern units IGBTs are

to flash a tube and measured

current peak to be about 1900A and am

about 6us and still at 300A after

reasonably priced/sized IGBT to

but the only IGBT I have is one I

My test setup isn't all that

about why it takes 20us from the

but that just seems like and

15us for the current to reach

large, 80mm long and 8mm dia.

I did that in the '60's, but used an SCR, read my patent at...

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...Jim Thompson

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|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

that in modern units IGBTs are

to flash a tube and measured

current peak to be about 1900A and am

about 6us and still at 300A after

reasonably priced/sized IGBT to

I believe there is a mistake with your measurement. In the common cameras, the flash current is at the order of 100A and the duration is ~tens of milliseconds. They handle it with IGBT of SOT-223 form factor.

However there are the special pulse tubes for use with lasers, etc. They have higher rate of the current increase and the shorter flash duration.

Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

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Reply to
Vladimir Vassilevsky

that in modern units IGBTs are

to flash a tube and measured

current peak to be about 1900A and am

about 6us and still at 300A after

reasonably priced/sized IGBT to

but the only IGBT I have is one I

My test setup isn't all that

about why it takes 20us from the

but that just seems like and

15us for the current to reach

large, 80mm long and 8mm dia.

The IGBT itself will limit the current. And waste some energy, I assume.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

That was my frst reaction also since I expected to see something less than 400A, but I can't find any reason for such a major error. I have a 200mv 200A shunt in series with the tube and am simply grabbing the voltage waveform across the shunt with an HP 54502A storage scope. So with 1mv/A and reading 1.9v peak that's

1900A. I connected the 1V scope calibrator output from an analog scope to 54502s input and it reads right on amplitude and time.

Mike If there is no absolute truth then nothing can be known.

Reply to
Mike

Yep, but the reason for opening the circuit instead of shunting the tube is to leave the unused charge in the cap to allow much quicker recharge time. If there is no absolute truth then nothing can be known.

Reply to
Mike

and I fear, fusing to a blob of silicon in the process. :)

Mike

If there is no absolute truth then nothing can be known.

Reply to
Mike

This isn't a case of "current limit". It actually does indeed interrupt the flash tube current abruptly.

That's the only way that modern flash can work predictably, controllably and repeatably.

I looked into this (for a non-commercial application) some time back and couldn't find any off the shelf (one piece) semis that could do it. I couldn't find any specific data on the way it was done, so suspected they used two devices, an SCR as per normal, and a more traditional semi switch to turn it off after the predetermined delay.

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Reply to
John Tserkezis

400A, but I can't find any reason

voltage waveform across the shunt

1900A. I connected the 1V scope

amplitude and time.

two possible sources of error

1) if the shunt is inductive it will read higher for the pulse 2) you may have a hugh common mode problem, i assume you have the shunt in the low voltage returm path...anyway, try connecting both ends of the scope probe to the same side of the shunt, i.e. you should expect to see 0V pulse when you fire the strobe...and check if you do... you may need to use a differential probe or other special technique to get an accuragte small signal measurment in the presense of the large discharge pulse..

or use a larger value shunt...

Mark

Reply to
Mark

400A, but I can't find any reason

I bet it is either inductive or capacitive parasitic pickup or a common ground problem.

Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

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Reply to
Vladimir Vassilevsky

400A, but I can't find any reason

voltage waveform across the shunt

1900A. I connected the 1V scope

amplitude and time.

Well, if that's what the 'scope shows, it's *got* to be true.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

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"it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
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Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

A couple of people make ICs that do the whole function: flyback converter, trigger stuff, IGBT gate driver with timing.

Shunt igbt, wastes energy:

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Series:

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There are several others.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

400A, but I can't find any reason

voltage waveform across the shunt

1900A. I connected the 1V scope

amplitude and time.

Current shunt inductance can be a serious error in this time domain. A current transformer would probably be more accurate, and avoid ground loops too.

1-turn primary, maybe 100 turn secondary on a ferrite toroid, 1 ohm or less non-inductive burden resistor. We've done this in the 100 amp, 50 ns sort of range, on a node that kicks a kilovolt, and it worked well.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Yes, but where were they when I needed them back then? :-)

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Reply to
John Tserkezis

Maybe they didn't exist?

The older controlled-flash units had two flashtubes, one to actually flash, and a second shunt tube, inside, that shorted out the cap when enough light had been generated.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

Thanks, I had no idea anyone made a controller like that. In looking at the data sheet and their demo board info, I see they are dealing with an 80A pulse with only 1J and small tube. So maybe my measurment isn't all that far off.

Mike If there is no absolute truth then nothing can be known.

Reply to
Mike

They show a flash-tube current of 60A peak (with a short little extra bit to 80A) decaying with an approximately 70us time constant. They suggest a CY25BAH-8F IGBT, which is a 400V "150A" Renesas part in a tiny tssop-8 package.

Reply to
Winfield

I wonder how I might calibrate such a homebrew current transformer? Shouldn't I see some serious ringing in the current waveform if my shunt is that inductive?

If there is no absolute truth then nothing can be known.

Reply to
Mike

This is a very low inductance shunt. It consists of 2 straps of resistance material about 1" wide and 5" long stacked on one above the other in brass blocks with Kelvin sense terminals. I just measured the inductance to be 0.2 to 0.4uH. It wants to drift around a bit. I have used this same shunt to measure a 3000A pulse in an impulse magnitizer that I built, but that was a much longer pulse. Somewhere around 8ms if I remember correctly. Yes the shunt is located between the capacitor neg terminal and the flash tube. The scope gnd, the charge power neg, capacitor neg, and shunt are all connected to the same node. I connected the scope probe tip to the that same node and the scope showed zero voltage.

Mike If there is no absolute truth then nothing can be known.

Reply to
Mike

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