harnessing lightning, or not

If you manage to make some huge capacitor on the ground and connect to an lightning arrester on top of a say 300 m isolated antenna tower, the capacitor will sooner or later charge to the potential of the air at 300 m (assuming lower leakage in the capacitor and feed line than through the surrounding air). The lightning arrestor tip potential would finally be about the same potential as the surrounding air at

300 m, thus, reducing the likelihood to that electrode, compared to grounded 300 m arrestor. Thus you may have to wait for the hit quite a long time.

If the lightning hits after all and the capacitor is charged, but there is some flash over between the plates (perhaps only weak point), the arc will burn as long as there is sufficient power to maintain the ionization in the arc. With a large capacitor with a large charge, there is going to be a large current maintaining the arc, hence dropping the voltage across the plates.

When the voltage has dropped sufficiently, the current is no longer capable of maintaining the arc and it will blow out. However, the remaining capacitor voltage is now much less than the initial flash over voltage, so very little energy can be recovered (energy proportional to the square of capacitor voltage).

Why wait for the lightning strike ? There is a quite a steep (20-200 kV/m) voltage gradient in the air during a thunderstorm that could be utilized. Benjamin Franklin essentially tried this. Using a balloon, lift a string of series connected capacitors into the cloud and let those capacitors be charged.

To collect enough charge, 2-3 balloons may be needed to suspend a "collector" net between them. When the capacitors have been charged, disconnect the "collector" from the capacitors and lower the balloons.

On the other hand, if there are high towers, in which the lightning arrestor is frequently hit, why not put a current transformer at the lower end of the grounded arrestor to capture some of the energy ?

Reply to
Paul Keinanen
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So you think air has a gradient voltage that is tied to altitude?

Where did you learn that at?

The node could be a ball at the center of the cap lid. It does not have to be a tower. If charged clouds are passing over a 300 foot or

2000 foot diameter insulator down on the ground and a single node is at the center, it will find it to be a nice attractor, and it will strike it. a one inch spike would do it. No tower needed since there is no nearby 'competition' as an 'attractor'. Any pointyness at all will make for a huge gradient compared to anywhere else within quite a distance.

Granted, a tower would be nice, but should not be needed to grab the attention of a charged cloud.

Reply to
Archimedes' Lever

e my post

nd

A recent TeeVee documentary on lightning showed how some guy with super high speed photography was also able to photograph lightning reaching up from various tall objects on the ground.

Apparently much like the sprite lightning plentiful above the clouds, this reverse lightning from various tall objects on the ground is plentiful but little known, and it had never been captured in any photographs before, ever.

This "reverse lightning" might possibly be of some value if you want to harmess atmospheric static electricity.

Not as BIG as a full blown strike, but it seems that if you put up a tower this (invisible) lightning takes place much more frequently.

Reply to
Greegor

It is like large scale Kirlian photography.

Any object that rises off the main homogenous 'normal flat' of the surface of this spheroid will acquire a gradient with respect to an insulted object up in the atmosphere. Clouds and water conduct, but the air doesn't. So, a charge-up of the cloud occurs with respect to the spheroid (Earth, in this case) Since it is conductive any release of that charge will usually result in a 'full dump' of the entire charge (most all of it anyway).

It will release from the charged cloud to Earth, but it is possible to see tendrils (leaders) that traverse from other than flat Earthbound objects (particularly upwardly pointy objects) up to the sky or particularly, an overhead cloud formation.

Think of it like the leaders that form when you near the outside of a plasma ball. You are an attractor, even though there is an insulator between you and the potential you share the attraction with.

The electrons, typically move from the cloud to the Earth though, because the Earth has far more available sinking mass than any separated, charged object ever could. So the attraction is ALWAYS going to be to the spheroidal mass unless the insulated, approaching object is bigger, which only happens when planets collide.

This tells me that an asteroid that impacts Earth (then meteorite) would have to have a lightning flash event to the ground at some altitude prior to it's impact. Hard to catch though, with the super-heated fireball being so bright.

In fact, anything previously charged or suspended in the air long enough to gain sufficient charge will pass an electron 'packet' to Earth as soon as it becomes able to do so, either by arc over or contact.

This is why sub-mariners (or sailors) catching winch lines being dropped by helicopters ground it to the sub first.

Reply to
BlindBaby

ALL lighting, and certainly any that you would end up capturing, regardless of what direction it was shot or where you caught it at, is 'atmospheric static electricity', silly man.

Reply to
BlindBaby

Yes. A pointed object makes for a high voltage gradient.

I have seen 'dull tipped' HV probes probe 50kV in a bath of dielectric fluid, and arc a half inch through the fluid, to the tip, as the 'probe' approached the HV node.

I have then seen that probe tip get changed to a sharply pointed tip, and then seen the subsequent arc flash right through the fluid, and jump

2 inches through the air as well, to get to that 'probe tip'.

The fluid gets 'perturbed' in the first case as the tip approaches. In the second case, it looks like an over-modulated ultrasonic bath, right up until the arc jumps up and out of it!

Reply to
BlindBaby

G > This "reverse lightning" might possibly G > be of some value if you want to harmess G > atmospheric static electricity.

Archimedes' Lever 72.197.137.141 Cox Oceanside AL > ALL lighting, and certainly any that you AL > would end up capturing, regardless of AL > what direction it was shot or where you AL > caught it at, is 'atmospheric static electricity', AL > silly man.

Then what are you arguing about?

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Reply to
Greegor

G > This "reverse lightning" might possibly G > be of some value if you want to harmess G > atmospheric static electricity.

Archimedes' Lever =A072.197.137.141 Cox Oceanside AL > ALL lighting, and certainly any that you AL > would end up capturing, regardless of AL > what direction it was shot or where you AL > caught it at, is 'atmospheric static electricity', AL > silly man.

G > Then what are you arguing about?

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Reply to
Greegor

^^^^^^^^ Lighting? What a putz, DimBulb.

Reply to
krw

post

I don't miss it, seen to much electronics come to grief from it. Hey, why don't engineers at RF module manufacturers get it into their heads that the first part after the antenna jack has got to be an inductor to ground? Anything else will eventually go *PHUT*.

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Reply to
Joerg

Why yes, you are, Williams. Mainly for bringing up an obvious typo. Obvious to anyone that has seen any of my previous posts, where it is spelled correctly.

Obvious to anyone with an IQ over 40. Most likely why you ruled yourself out with your 'pussy boy wants to be in the group but isn't' idiot mentality. Please, take your senile stupidity and go away.

Reply to
Archimedes' Lever

post

Yawn.

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Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

You're a hypocritical putz, too, DimBulb.

Then why do you insist on doing the exact same thing, AlwaysWrong?

AlwaysWrong is always wrong, as everyone here knows.

Reply to
krw

post

T'is what I did when I just encountered the umpteenth module where that was done wrong :-)

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Reply to
Joerg

my post

Yawn, as in: WHAT ABOUT ALL THE RF EQUIPMENT WITH A DC VOLTAGE AT THE INPUT CONNECTOR?

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Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

my post

Gear out in the field typically never has that. I've done a lot of RF designs and even more re-designs by now. The number of units that would be DC-fed or have to provide LNA power was zero. Fact is, units deployed in the south or on the island won't even live through the first year with a nice big inductor to ground. Lightning strike into some fence out there, voltage surge, somewhere above 100V the input cap decides it's had it ... *POP* ... preamp and final TX amp are goners.

Of course, if you design sat-gear that's different.

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Reply to
Joerg

my post

Some filtering would be required to keep out strong out of band signals (such as broadcasting radio and TV or radar) from overloading the front end. The inductor to ground would come naturally as part of a parallel LC filter.

With microwave gears, in the cavity resonator, use a magnetic probe (not capacitive probe) to connect to the amplifier input, since the other end of the magnetic probe is connected to the case.

Reply to
Paul Keinanen

see my post

If they won't survive, why are there hundreds of Dish and Direct satellite companies around here? Or line powered TV preamps? The only RF equipment I've lost was due to a direct strike that scatter pieces of the amplified TV antenna over about 1000 square feet. This is the highest lightning strike are in the US.

I've had a 5 meter sat dish hit by lightning. I lost all of the LNAs, but not one sat receiver. The biggest risk is poorly grounded systems. Its amazing to see MATV or other head ends and equipment rooms with a piece of 14 gauge wire looped around the room and connected to an outlet. Then they think they are protected. You need a good, heavy duty rack and a good grounding system. One head end ended up with a ground rod for each rack, and bare 8 AWG solid copper wire. All of antenna lines were rerouted to a 1/4" aluminum ground plane. It was tied to the new grounding system. From what I heard, they never had problems from lightning again, even though the tower has been struck several times.

When I was repairing CATV headend equipment it was amazing how poorly designed some equipment was. The best had a rf transformer at the input for isolation. Some didn't even have a resistor across the input connector to bleed off a static charge. The typical value was around

4.7K.

Another problem was thin steel chassis, held together by sheet metal screws. The spot welded aluminum cases were better, and used PEM nuts to secure the cover. The heavy case had a lot lower impedance to ground than the cheap steel cases.

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Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

see my post

Most of this stuff is nowadays wideband so you'll find low/highpass combos. Or sometimes nothing. Lightning typically has most of its spectral energy under 1MHz. Easy to muffle but many if not most designers of RF module fail to do so.

[...]
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Reply to
Joerg

see my post

Because the LNAs protect them by dying in their place :-)

See? That's the stuff I also find and I bet your experience is more than a decade ago. That would mean in a decade or more almost nothing has been learned about lightning effects. What really irks me is that they still don't seem to teach this sort of practical stuff at universities.

I usually have to deal with PVC or ABS :-(

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Reply to
Joerg

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