what is a good free capture and layout software?
what is a good free capture and layout software?
Den Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:28:01 +0100 skrev ivan:
-- Vy73 de OZ1GNN Christian Treldal
Just took a brief look - very interesting. I have a few questions I didn't notice while glancing through:
Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:
On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:38:15 -0500) it happened Mike Monett wrote in :
What is wrong with Eagle for small boards and 2 layers?
Not yet, but it's being worked on. I just keep both windows open, and make changes simultaneously. I haven't found it too annoying yet. In fact, with pcb's rats code, it's easier (design-wise) to make the change in the schematic, export a new netlist, and let the rats code guide you through the trace changes, since it highlights the mismatched traces and tells you when they're reconnected right.
I believe the common objections are that it isn't free (as in beer) for commercial usage and that some people really, REALLY want a piece of software with the source code provided so that they can modify/patch it if they feel like it.
On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:06:00 -0800) it happened "Joel Kolstad" wrote in :
OK, no beer. As to patching, hey I am an active Linux contributor, and added important functionality to several open source packages ( dvdauthor, tcmplex-panteltje for example), also wrote some totally new ones: xste, multimux... many of that stuff, and I _tried_ to get mplayer fixed and I _tried_ to get DVB driver fixed..... well, I ain't gona patch for them if they want to do their own trip. I have looked (downloaded geda whatever that package years(!) ago, and it needed so many other packages, and with all that it still did not work, so better use something that works. (I found somebody in France IIRC made a Linux distro CD size with all working, but hey do you want me to remove the current distro? ;-) ) Of course when it does not work, patching it is even further in the future. So your second argument may be valid for somebody, but how many do you think that are? If I download a program, open source or closed source, I usually do that because I want to use it for something, not to 'improve on it' if in any way possible. If it is the only program, and I can figure out how to improve it, I will. But if I need to make a PCB, have it ready say end of week, I will use something that works. That is for private use. As a company, the cost of time spend 'patching' (never mind time installing even) is likely more then a brand new version of eagle. So economics apply. And then there are the libraries. Why does spellchecker want to replace 'distro' with 'bistro' :-)
Hi Jan. I am running Eagle on Suse. It works, but I still can't get used to the large number of mouse clicks needed to do a board.
One thing I do appreciate is the utter reliability of Linux. I would leave Eagle running six months or more at a time and never had a crash. But I got into the habit of rebooting Windows several times a day, especially before doing anything critical.
Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution:
I think that objectively it applies to less than 1 person in 1000 that wants to do a PCB, but I'm welling to bet that there are at least ten times that many people who go to open source because their mindset is "must use open source software; closed source evil! Bill Gates is spawn of Satan!"
I agree with you... although there are people in commercial situations (i.e., they can't choose for themselves what software they're using) who I think would go and improve software (if only to patch bugs) if they had the source code available. (ORCAD is a good example... has lots of weird crappy little bugs.)
In general I agree, but I think there are a lot of people out there whose companies use a "low value" product such as, say, PADS (powerful package that gets the job done, but *quite* expensive compared to other packages that are just as good... company is unwilling to switch because they have, say, 20 people using it who they don't want to re-train... penny-wise and pound-foolish, perhaps, but that's the way many companies are) where it probably *would* have real commercial payback to fix things yourself.
Did you use the cvs download, or the installer CD? The installer CD has everything you need on one disk, and builds/installs it all for you.
Methinks you read to much into Ivan's request for "free software." It's likely that he doesn't care about open-source and he just wants something for nothing.
As it turns out, the free (as in beer) PCB software is worth exactly what you pay for it.
Having started off life with the 1.2 version of EasyPC for DOS, waded through Orcad, and wound up as a beta tester for Circuitmaker/Traxmaker 2K, the problem with Eagle is that it is completely counterintuitive.
I was up and running (well, OK, maybe a brisk walk) with those first three packages within a couple of days. Two MONTHS with Eagle and I still was struggling.
If you gave the German source code for Eagle to a Brit or an Aussie to massage you'd probably have something to take the world on with. As it stands, it is a monument to German engineering that is, for the most part, useless.
On a sunny day (29 Nov 2006 12:57:11 -0500) it happened DJ Delorie wrote in :
I tried it from source. As I stated some years ago. I just checked out that site again, and I see now there is an installer CD. The reason for 'from source' is that this system I have looks like debian, but is totally modified, although many packages are there, a debian install would perhaps not find these, and mess up the system installing in other locations perhaps. I use grml (
So I am scared of installer CD too. WTF is wrong with a tgz. Maybe MAYBE if I feel the inspiration and need, I will have a go again. I do have a backup system :-)
That said, I am downloading the 129MB ISO image and will check out what is on it. Probably will not work ;-) Some stuff I already have of course, PCB, iverilog... PCB is OK, made some layouts with that too, however it is on the other harddisk. (old suse distro). I did have that working in qemu at the same time once IIRC.
Have to stay clear of these experiments..... Maybe it is all to complicated for me :-)
Ok, a lot has changed in the last few years.
The installer CD has all the tgzs you need, plus a script to build what you're missing and install it - all in a separate directory, so it wouldn't mess up your system.
So you can just build the tgz off the CD if that's what you want.
If not, we want to know. Ok, Stuart wants to know ;-)
I've read this several times now, and whenever I do it often takes me back to the early '90s when I was using ProBoard/ProNet on an Amiga 3000 to layout PCBs... it was another classic example of completely throwing away the "theme" of the GUI within the OS and inventing their own from scratch!
Anyone else here ever use that package?
I remember calling up for tech support one and the guy yelled at me because I had taken advantage of their "beta tester" discount -- which wasn't much, maybe 20% off the regular price -- but then not actually had a board to do right then and therefore was unable to provide them feedback as to what worked and what didn't. Sheesh.
I also remember how it wasn't even smart enough to "rubber band" wires or nets if you moved components around (and this was during the ORCAD SDT 386 days, which certainly *could*). Aieee...
In sci.electronics.cad Jan Panteltje wrote: : On a sunny day (29 Nov 2006 12:57:11 -0500) it happened DJ Delorie :>Jan Panteltje writes: :>> I have looked (downloaded geda whatever that package years(!) ago, and it :>> needed so many other packages, and with all that it still did not work, :>> so better use something that works. :>
:>Did you use the cvs download, or the installer CD? The installer CD :>has everything you need on one disk, and builds/installs it all for :>you.
: I tried it from source. : As I stated some years ago.
Well, let's see. First you tried it out "some years ago". It didn't meet your needs at the time, so you now dismiss it out of hand.
As for me, I tried driving a car "some years ago". I got my hands on something called a "Model T". It was hard to start, didn't go fast enough, and didn't meet my needs. Therefore, I have stuck to walking ever since then because cars don't meet my needs.
: I just checked out that site again, and I see now there is an installer CD.
Oh! You mean that the project has evolved over the last few years!? You don't say.....
: The reason for 'from source' is that this system I have looks like debian, : but is totally modified, although many packages are there, a debian : install would perhaps not find these, and mess up the system installing in : other locations perhaps.
Ummm, there are several installation methods listed on this page:
including Debian .debs, Fedora RPMs, and the install CD.
: So I am scared of installer CD too.
That's fine. That's why there are multiple install options. Chose the one you are most comfortable with.
: WTF is wrong with a tgz.
Ummm, the there are all source files in tgz format available on this page (linked on the main download page):
: That said, I am downloading the 129MB ISO image and will check out what is : on it. : Probably will not work ;-)
Let us know if it doesn't. If it fails, please report the distro you are using along with including the Install.log file with your report. If you just e-mail the developers a note saying "I tried your installer and it failed. Why?" they will treat you like a two month old sandwich found in the back of the fridge.
On a sunny day (29 Nov 2006 14:00:08 -0500) it happened DJ Delorie wrote in :
OK, here you have it, downloaded geda-install-20060907.iso Mounted it in loop
mount -t iso9660 -o ro,loop=/dev/loop0 geda-install-20060907.iso /mnt/loop Made a directory as root:
mkdir /root/compile/geda cd /root/compile/geda grml: ~/compile/geda # /mnt/loop/installer --log print: About to call gtk.main
/mnt/loop/installer --log 4.73s user 1.84s system 33% cpu 19.509 total
Here is your firts mistajke, i taskes me for root password, and I AM already root. And what guarantee do I have it is not send to you (this is a server remember), security risk. Anyways it tells me it wil linstall 'gd' and the crashes, with nothing of use in the log. grml: ~/compile/geda # cat Install.log This is the log window which will display the spew generated by the installation process
gEDA Installer -- version 20060907, Copyright (C) 2004 -- 2006 Stuart D. Brorson.
This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details:
You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA.
Checking for various required programs . . .
which gcc /usr/bin/gcc
which make /usr/bin/make
which gtk-config gtk-config not found gtk-config is missing on this machine. We'll tell the user about that in a minute.
which pkg-config /usr/bin/pkg-config pkg-config version 0.20 found. pkg-config version found on this system is good. Great!
find /usr/include /usr/local/include -name 'readline.h' -print | grep 'include/readline/readline.h' /usr/include/readline/readline.h readline.h found on this system. Great!
which gettext /usr/bin/gettext
which autopoint /usr/bin/autopoint A complete gettext installation found on this system. Great!
which gdlib-config gdlib-config not found We need to install gdlib-config on this machine. We'll do that in a minute.
which guile guile not found We need to install guile on this machine. We'll do that in a minute.
which wx-config wx-config not found We need to install wx-config on this machine. We'll do that in a minute.
which wish /usr/bin/wish tclsh version 8.4 found. tclsh version found on this system is good. Great!
Preparing to install gd libraries. . . .
Now start process of building and installing gd.
I need root in order to execute this command.
--- Starting expect session --- Sending su Timeout waiting for password prompt
-------------------------------------------------- End of log. CRASHED here
Maybe you now get why you should release a stail linked version...... Anyways it did not get very far now did it? I stop here (no more tests).
On a sunny day (Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:07:17 -0000) it happened Stuart Brorson wrote in :
: That said, I am downloading the 129MB ISO image and will check out what is
See my other posting how it failed and your no clue about security.
**What's Wrong with Cadsoft EAGLE" by Markus Zingg
BTW, it's not really necessary to include the full text from the 3 previous posters. Feel free to TRIM.
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