Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard?

Yep. That should work. Some detail and alternatives: How we got to the plywood and glass kludge was almost predictable. Someone defined the need. Management declared that there was no money, floor space, staffing, etc. Irritated engineer throws something temporary together to be used only until the necessary money, floor space, staffing, etc are found. However, since the temporary kludge worked reasonably well, the crisis had been averted, and the kludge become permanent.

Moral: If it works, it's permanent.

That does happen if one stretches the tape when laying a trace. It's especially bad with narrow traces. Traces will move, especially if the layout is left in the sun. I used a rubber roller from my wet photography kit, to flatten the traces and make sure they're properly stuck to the mylar. (Incidentally, note that I used acetate instead of mylar in the above layout. Not a good idea and I forgot why I did it).

For RF, rounded corners are a problem due to impedance bumps. Sharp corners are equally bad due to reflection problems. The compromise is a chamfered corner (mitered bend): which unfortunately also makes a tolerable fuse at the bend.

However, the above PCB is not an RF board. Instead, the problem was the cheap wave solder machine that we were using at the time. Somehow, it often managed to burn or scrape off the solder mask on sharp corner bends. The result was usually an impressive solder bridge at the corners and a tedious touchup job. I was never able to determine the cause, so it was circumvented by using radiused bends and liberal trace spacing.

I had a weird situation at 3 consecutive companies. After the usual extremely long management inspired delays deciding if the company should work on a given product, a schedule was created, usually by the engineering manager. Invariably, there was not enough time to work through a proper design. For example, one project that took about 8 or 9 months from conception to delivery, only allowed 2 weeks for the initial (paper) design. Everything else was allowed a fairly normal period (breadboard, testing, FCC certification, compliance testing, fixture construction, prototype run in manufacturing, etc). In effect, the design was mostly frozen two weeks after the project started. Little wonder we needed a full prototype in order to find the inevitable design errors. If we had time to have done a more rigorous design, much of the subsequent fire drills could have been avoided.

As I previously noted, my attempts to do one product perfectly the first time, failed because the PC fab house reversed the component and circuit sides of the PCB.

Lesson learned: Trust but verify.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann
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I sometimes put test traces with SMAs on boards and TDR them. For a 50 ohm microstrip on a normal board, 90 degree bends are invisible on a

20 GHz TDR. Vias are visible. What's tough is the transition from microstrip to an edge-launch SMA. We've spent a lot of time getting that good, ATLC sims and such.

We used to put PARTS SIDE and SOLDER SIDE in copper text. They need to read right on the finished board.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Ah, a diazo copier. I first, and last, used one in high school drafting class, around 1989. I remember that it was the first time I had seen a peristaltic pump, and that after several guys had made copies on it, the ammonia fumes would start to fill the room. The usual remedy was to open the windows, even in January in Kansas City. Who needs OSHA or a MSDS, anyway.

At a job about 7 years ago, the Panasonic 32" professional flat-screen monitor (full HD, metal case, serial port, HD-SDI inputs - a few grand at the time) was absent one Monday morning. After a search of the building and general denials, the boss was preparing to phone the police. Just then, a person in the same position showed up, and admitted that he had taken it home over the weekend to watch the ball game.

In the flesh, but as Rev D, as opposed to the Rev B artwork above:

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In June 1986, you could get this board, an FT-156 light pen, *and* a free copy of Windows (about what it was worth, then), for the low low price of $349! Roughly $760 today, according to the bls.gov calculator, so probably even more than that. Source: ad in the June 10, 1986 "PC Magazine", probably not available at or maybe even

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.

At the few places I've worked where they made boards from scratch, it depended on the board. Simple stuff (microcontroller, a few LEDs) didn't get breadboarded. Complex stuff (like a several-hundred-watt

1 GHz transmitter) had some sections breadboarded, like the final amplifier and maybe some of the filtering. Then they would order three boards, stuff and test, and usually end up doing one spin of the board. This was recent enough that it was all CAD.

Matt Roberds

Reply to
mroberds

From the source you cite: "If you use a radius greater than three times the line width, you will have a transmission line that is almost indistinguishable in impedance characteristics from a straight section."

So where is the problem?

My understanding the reflection idea is also a myth but rather the real issue is the impedance change due to the added capacitance of the corner, which is also supported by your reference. Impedance changes will also cause reflections, but the signal does not reflect from the corner itself like a light beam.

--

Rick
Reply to
rickman

Please do tell more. you just don't see things like this, anywhere else.

Reply to
Cydrome Leader

I saw a neat variant of that. The circuit board was correct but the designer hadn't realised that the documentation showed the IC from the "wrong side", i.e. the way the chip packaging people viewed it. First samples of ICs, and all that.

Magic smoke left the chips.

Solution: through holes, so mount them on the other side of the board - problem solved.

Always true!

Reply to
Tom Gardner

A plain old "sun lamp" bulb also worked well. Dunno if those are still readily available these days, since you'd think that by now most everybody would be clued into the skin cancer bit. On the other hand you can still buy a Big Mac on most any street corner, so who knows?

Best regards,

Bob Masta DAQARTA v7.60 Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis

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Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter Frequency Counter, Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI FREE Signal Generator, DaqMusiq generator Science with your sound card!

Reply to
Bob Masta

I have one, and I use it occasionally to copy my D-sized schematics when I give them to The Brat to CAD.

--

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

Oddly, if you say "90 degree bend" to someone doing a "tape up" (using real tape), it assumes that they are actually producing a radiused line with the tape, instead of a sharp 90 degree corner. Those were called "cut corners" to allow for the distinction. Of course with computah layout software a 90 degree bend is whatever the software uses for such things, which could be anything from a sharp corner to a pre-defined radiused curve.

I might be guilt of accepting conventional wisdom without verification. I've looked at various microstrip designs with a TDR in the past, but have always concentrated on material transistions (connectors, component leads, transfomers, couplers, etc) and not glitches along transmission lines. When I had to make a right angle turn with a microstrip, I simply chamfered the corner in the conventional manner and never tested if it made any difference. Were I do a microstrip tomorrow, it would probably use chamfered corners on the assumption that it's safer to follow conventional wisdom.

However, it's interesting that you found no reflections from a 90 degree bend (or corner)? I've never even bothered to look, mostly because I've never had a TDR with enough sensitivity or bandwidth. I did some Googling for examples and found this: which shows a TDR display, and follows with layout suggestions including chamfered corners on traces. The text of the article indicates that there are corner reflections, but I don't see them on the scope trace. That's what I would expect, as most of the reflections are coming from material transistions (connectors, leads, components, etc).

When I had to go through the board, I sometimes added extra vias to simulate the width of the strip line. I never tested if it made any difference.

I had things much easier in the 1970's. Components and products were much larger. Higher power consumption was tolerated. Standards and environmental were more liberal or didn't exist. Product life cycles were longer. Computers were still a design aid and not a necessity. Designs and protocols just weren't that sensitive to reflections for it to be an issue worth investigating.

Good point and another reason I wouldn't use my PCB for a job interview. See: Note that they have large "CIRCUIT" and "COMP" labels, with the correct orientation. However, they are outside the board outline, which means they might disappear from the negative, and certainly will disappear from the step-and-repeat negative used to produce the actual PCB's. These labels should have been on the actual PCB. However, that was easier said than done because of lack of room. I try to put them underneath a large size component, where hopefully, there are no traces. That's usually not the case. When I put the labels in the trace area, the size of the labels are usually too small for the PCB fab shop to easily see. Despite them allegedly looking for such labels, they often missed them. When I stupidly used "CIR" and "COMP", someone managed to misread them, and reversed them anyway. For this board, I ran out of board space, so I gave up and put the labels outside of the board area, and hoped for the best.

Notice that the shorting bar needed to electroplate the gold contact fingers is missing. My fault, but easily fixed by the PCB fab shop (for a price).

I added some more photos:

Notice the silk screen at: Those are NOT computer generated letters and patterns. They were done with an India ink pen and a collection of templates. Sometimes, I would use stick type and stick on component outlines, but mostly pen and ink. Examples of some of the templates used: Notice the 1:1 templates. Those were used to make a cardboard mockup of the PCB to make sure that the big parts would fit. When using pen and ink to make the silk screen, it was necessary to elevate the template, to prevent ink from running under the template. I had various schemes for doing that, but mostly it was several layers of masking tape on the bottom of the templates. One had to be very careful not to let the masking tape touch recent ink lines or they would smear.

My examples of stick type or rub on letters is long gone. There were also machines that would produce such rub on letters in strips.

For the silk screen, I used Koh-I-Noor pens. The pen tips are similar to plotter pens. Fast dry ink was nice, but clogs to quickly. Slow dry meant that one had to be very careful not to touch the lines before they were completely dry. The pen also had to be held perfectly vertical, or it would dump a blob of ink on the mylar.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

The real problem is with using cut corners. Many companies and schools taught different techniques of making 90 degree turns with traces. I was taught to use the Xacto knife to cut half way across the trace, before "bending" the tape 90 degrees to make a corner. That eliminated a messy looking corner produced then the trace is cut all the way across, and overlaid with tape at 90 degrees to make the corner. That produced a radius of about 1/3rd the width of the trace. However, such corner cutting takes time, and it's much easier to make sweeping turns, which is what I did on this PCB. This also has the advantage in RF where it produces shorter trace lengths than with corners. However, none of this is important for this PCB. It was designed for the IBM PC ISA bus, where the highest frequency it might encounter would be about 14.3 MHz.

Agreed. I should have said "impedance bump problem" instead of "reflection problem".

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

Kinda sounds like your machine had a clogged ammonia fumes filter. I ran a print shop for a short while that had several machines that ran on ammonium hydroxide. You could smell it when filling or cleaning, but not when operating. Note the availability of non-ammonia developer. I never used any because it was too expensive.

My father owned a lingerie factory as I was trying to grow up. He had the same complaint about me borrowing and occasionally returning tools, which I used mostly to keep my junk car going.

Yep, that's it. I didn't do Rev D. My father had a stroke about this time and I became unavailable.

That was an ad prior to the delayed release date of Windoze 2.0 in Dec

1987: Microsoft (MS) was having a hard time selling people on the idea that they needed Windoze and getting accessory vendors to support Windoze. At the time, Windoze sucked so my RAM and CPU cycles, that there was little left for the program. (Remember TopView)? Command line DOS was good enough for most users.

The MS plan was to bundle a free copy of Windoze 2.0 with computers and accessory manufacturers in order to get customers used to the idea of using Windoze. MS made the add-on and accessory card manufacturers are really good offer. If they would write Windoze drivers for their products, MS would give them a free Windoze license and packaged product that would be bundled with the accessory card. All we had to do was write the drivers. The price was right, the opportunities looked good, the risks seemed minimal, so we went for it. The board design was cleaned up and considerable effort was spent writing Windoze 2.0 drivers for the card. Incidentally, the problem wasn't Windoze or the card. It was that IBM had made a big mistake in the light pen BIOS support and left it unfixed. Different PC manufacturers had different ways of fixing (or ignoring) the problem, resulting in some unexpected complexity.

As the launch day for Windoze 2.0 approached, we were getting ready. Boards were being built, packaging designed, promotional literature printed, sales pitches orchestrated, press releases fabricated, ads placed in magazines, retail sales arranged, etc. We had everything except the physical copy of Windoze 2.0, which had to wait until MS was ready to ship (after numerous delays). What could possibly go wrong?

What happened was that Microsoft president Jon Shirley changed his mind at the last moment: The deadline for getting the drivers onto the distribution floppies was about 3 months before the original planned release date, so MS already had all the drivers that they needed. No need to honor their part of the bargain. MS decided to sell Windoze 2.0 retail, and left their formerly loyal hardware accessory manufacturers with nothing. Of course, the large PC manufacturers bundled Windoze, the first of which was not coincidentally Jon Shirley's former employer, Tandy. I lost track of what happened after that as I was busy running the family lingerie business at the time.

Lesson learned: Microsoft cannot be trusted.

I don't recall the prices, but $350 sounds about right for the time. Please note that a complete 1986 vintage PC/AT system of the day cost about $3,000 to $6,000.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

You bet. Interesting history as some might say.

?-)

Reply to
josephkk

On Mon, 22 Sep 2014 23:56:33 -0700, josephkk Gave us:

I remember 4X layout work, and the first XT and 286 PCs with AutoCAD for doing 2 layer printer plotted 4X artwork (we were small and could not afford UNIX workstation class CAD hardware back then).

We had our own camera in the engineering lab, and could send production ready photo-resist masks, and gerber files to the PCB house, saving those costs, which back then, mattered.

Then, some idiot formatted the 10MB XT drive. Oh Joy.

Reply to
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno

A 4.7Gb DVD-R would've mind blowing back then.

It wasn't *SO* long ago that you could set a 600Mb CD-RW formatting, and go for lunch while you wait.

Reply to
Ian Field

I recall you telling this story before. That doesn't mean you shouldn't keep telling it, though. :)

I don't know all the details but I heard something similar recently. Microsoft decided that they needed Windows to work on tablets, so they dreamed up Windows RT (I think), and had some kind of a program for hardware companies to build prototypes. The companies obliged, did some designs and maybe even some prototypes, which Microsoft saw. A short time later, Microsoft announced they were going to build Surface themselves, which caused many of the hardware partners to simply give up. Again, some of the fine details of this may be wrong.

Matt Roberds

Reply to
mroberds

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