Canon Bubble-jet printers

Just realised I mistyped - should be 1200 dpi :)

NT

Actually the eBay warranty is pretty good. As long as you do what you need to do within the time periods, getting your money back is pretty much assu red. If that fails disputing via the credit card is still an option. The only time I've not gotten satisfaction is when I miss the time limits.

In particular, a laptop I bought which had an over heating problem and they initially offer a refund or something off the purchase price. I wanted to try opening the machine to see if I needed but never did. By the time I a sked for the $60 refund they no longer replied and a few days later the eBa y 60 days were up. So I contacted the credit card company and ended up get ting ALL my money back.

That said, I would not buy a device described this way, not tested and not warrantied. Move on to another purchase. There's always another one out t here on eBay even if you need to wait a few days.

Rick C.

Yes..the Canon inkjets do seem to have functional longevity..until something mechanical fails, forcing the toss function to be implemented...

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"used printer" -- buy a new printer and the next day it is used .. and therefore to be rejected maligned, replaced?

My Canon BJC-4100 has given maybe 10 years of service and obviously is used.

It mechanically broke down and is too expensive to be fixed. It uses ink cartridges that (new) are as expensive as those for the modern inkjets. However, the older technology cartridges are easily refillable, and do not have reporting chips to interfere with simple replace-and-go. Also, off-brand (and older technology) cartridges last many years.

I also have a Canon Pixma MP280 which cost an outrageous $10.00; a "multi function" beast. The only almost decent function is printing. The "almost" is due to the BS fact of the "warning: Prevent printer abrasion is set" message every time one wants to print. The pain-in-the-neck function is the scan (copy part slightly better) function. It is a lot like Win7,in that it likes to hide where the images go - but worse in that it seems impossible to move/copy them. And the format is not standard or nominally recognizable; it was so bad that i gave up and do not use the scan function at all. Have a Mustek USB-1200 scanner that works with ZERO hassle in Win2K thru WinXP and works faster.

"More features" does not necessarily mean "more useful"; the Pixma proves that "more features" will likely mean "you cannot use the extra stuff in an easy and hassle-free manner" and may mean "you have to go thru more hassle to do standard desirable stuff".

It is bad enough to have a printer tied to the USB port - one cannot do a COPY LPT1:,it is worse with WiFi fighting neighbor stronger signal interference, and cell phone interference too.

Dammit, i want my Model T, it can be fixed using the tools that came with it; i do not need a PHD, a fancy lab and a raft of techs spanning

5-6 technologies to fix the new junk that falls apart when i lean on the fender.

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Yea..even 5 years ago,when there was some sites that could be used for cross-reference (cartridges VS printers), such cross-reference inf was incomplete; worse now.

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That hidden code was/is there to uniquely identify the printer, and could be used for tracing counterfeiters, etc.

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Or the ink spillage container gets full. I had to clean it on my previous printer, a IP4000. I hope I can do the same with my current Canon when the times comes.

Mat Nieuwenhoven

Feature-overloaded junk will keep being made & sold as long as there are people that are drawn to buy it. That's their concern, but when it takes over the whole market it becomes my concern.

NT

Now there's a problem for you.

A zero(%) chance means never - but what is a -50% chance ?

A 0.1% chance is not often, but what about -0.1% ?

And if it's only probably negative ........

MK

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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Pro office lasers are not feature ridled or feature driven. They are output driven. So we see large paper drawers and collation assemblies, etc. as "features".

I do computer and printer repair to support my decadent lifestyle. I have some opinions on operating costs and cost of ownership, but have not done any detailed studies. I have noticed that an inkjet printer owner will often recycle the inkjet and purchase a color laser or LED printer. I have never seen a color laser printer owner discard the color laser and purchase an inkjet as its replacement. Also, the color laser printers tend to be used as printing presses and often arrive with 70,000 pages printed on the counter. Most of the inkjet printers I drag to the recycler are dead after about 8,000 pages.

Lately, I've been repairing various Brother laser and LED printers. (I no longer do inkjets). These printers are admittedly poor quality, but will last forever if they are kept clean. I recently fixed a poor print quality problem on my dentists Brother MFC-9340CDW color LED printer by simply cleaning the LED's and emptying the toner waste bin.

This printer originally cost about $450 and currently shows about

80,000 pages printed: $450 / 80,000 = $0.0056/page

A set of 5 replacement TN221 toner cartridges cost $36 on eBay for

2Blk and 1each of the other colors: A set of carts lasts about 1,800 pages at: $36 / 1,800 = $0.0200/page

A replacement BU220CL belt is a good idea after every 50,000 pages. $80 / 50,000 = $0.0160/page

The printer needed a replacement flimsy "film" in the fuser. This is normally a $10 item, but since there were a few scratches in the fuser drum, I decided to replace the entire assembly: The printer shows about 80,000 pages, so that's: $155 / 80,000 = $0.0019/page

I haven't submitted an invoice for all this yet, but my guess is about $150 labor every 50,000 pages: $150 / 50,000 = $0.0030/page

Good 22 pound paper costs about $6/ream: $6 / 500 = $0.0120

Total for purchase price, supplies, and labor: $0.0056 + $0.02 + $0.0160 + $0.0019 + $0.0030 + $0.0120 = $0.0585/page

Notice that the largest operating expense for this printer is the $0.0200/page for toner. Were this replaced by factory toner purchased at retail prices from an authorized dealer, that would increase to about $300: $300 / 1,800 = $0.17/page or 8.5 times higher than eBay toner. I think this is why your "tested numbers" are so high for laser and LED printers. At those prices, you could ignore the initial cost of the printer and all the other operating and maintenance costs, and simply compare the costs of the replacement toner and ink. I don't have time to do that right now, but I think you'll find that laser and LED printer toner is much cheaper per page than inkjet ink. I could also do a similar cost of ownership price estimate for a comparable inkjet printer but that should be easy enough using my calculations as a template.

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Incidentally, that's why most inkjet printers will refuse to print anything with only the black ink cartridge installed. The yellow ink cartridge has to be installed in order to print the MIC dots.

I haven't bothered doing this, but it might be interesting to put some dark colored ink in a yellow ink cartridge to make the dots more visible. Or, use a blue LED reading light: At 0.1mm diameter and 1mm spacing, the dots are really difficult to see without magnification and color filtering.

Light reading:

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Ouch! We don't pay a tenth that. That kind of page cost buys some very nice printers.

NT

I could make it look even cheaper by simply increasing the number of pages printed per toner cartridge. The $0.02/page cost for the toner was based on buying an extra black cartridge (because the office uses it as a fax machine and all the junk faxes arrive in black print). I also prefer using the standard 1400 page TN221 cartridges, instead of the "high yield" 2200 page TN225 cartridge. While the TN225 would theoretically be more economical, the toner vendors just can't seem to resist the temptation to overfill the toner cartridge, which dumps toner all over the mechanism when the cartridge is first installed. I got tried of cleaning up the mess for customers and found the smaller TN221 cartridges to be a good solution. Unfortunately, the typical eBay vendor does not distinguish between the two cartridges and only sells a TN221/TN225 cart, which can be half empty or overfilled.

I can also reduce the cost per page by:

1. Ignoring the initial cost of the printer.
2. Eliminating the service costs and labor and simply assume that the printer will run forever with zero maintenance.
3. Using the predicted service life of the printer for the page count.
4. Using the inflated 2200 pages per TN225 cartridge.
5. Using an "economy mode" which reduces toner use by about 20%.

If I did all that, I would get:

Set of 4 cartridges yielding 2200 pages each for: $38 / 2200 = $0.0173/page Yes, 4 carts cost more than 5 carts depending on the vendor:

Cost of paper is unchanged at: Good 22 pound paper costs about $6/ream: $6 / 500 = $0.0120

Total for toner and paper is now: $0.0173 + $0.0120 = $0.0293/page which saves $0.01/page from my previous calculation.

If you're able to operate a commodity printer for "a tenth that" or between $0.003 to $0.006/page, you must be getting your toner VERY cheap, printing almost blank pages, using mostly black toner, printing on both sides of the page, using 20lb paper, getting your paper VERY cheap, and not including any maintenance and parts. Or you could be refilling your own cartridges with bulk toner, and/or own a paper mill. Or, you could be using a Xerox (formerly Tektronix) "Solid Ink" (thermal wax) printer, which drastically cuts the cost of toner and doubles as a room heater.

So, which maker and model color laser or LED printer is cheaper than my Brother example?

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

ice printers.

ignoring costs doesn't reduce them. The only cost not included is time take n getting machines fixed - for people that can't do their own that will of course raise total costs. I have enough waiting times & enough printers to do it then.

divide that by 3 for 80gsm A4 (21lb). Occasionally we use 70 (20lb). (A3 is more per area, card more & colour card much more but I'm using prices for A4 paper here.)

yup

Last buy was a 10kg sack. The markup on little refill packs is huge.

the pages are packed but text & graphics are kept lightweight

mostly only black

mostly yes

around $2 for a 500 sheet ream

s to be as good.

yes

no. Cut paper (A4, letter etc) is a lot more cost than bulk rolls but we're not doing enough volume for that.

They're crazy expensive to run. That's why they disappeared.

Most are used HPs, B&W only. People like to get rid of their old reliable p rinters & get new junk. IME the older they are the more reliable. One to my right is still running on its internal 286 cpu. That one lacks duplex thou gh, which is limiting. Some machines were free, some were bought at a fract

t condition, this sort of thing:

NT

You can see them with either if you have the right filter and 20-20 vision. Once you know what to look for they are visible without magnification on the right background.

Nothing stops you putting water in the yellow tank though.

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Martin Brown

Aha! So it's *not* all about tracing forgers of banknotes, then! Why am I not the least surprised about that. It's principled whistleblowers they're really after. Bastards!

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Compared to other *COLOR* laser printers of their day, the cost of operation was quite a bit less for Xerox/Tek solid ink (wax). The wax was priced to be about the same as HP color toner at the retail level. In order to sell their printers, Xerox would lease them to volume users which included a free printer, free paper, and free wax. I don't recall the cost per page or monthly minimum, but it was quite reasonable. I still maintain 3 of these printers. In my never humble opinion, the major problems were:

1. 30 minute warm up from cold start required before it would print.
2. Extreme difficult doing repairs thanks to the reservoir of hot oil necessary for proper operation.
3. The wax print tended to melt/smear/run when hot, crack when the paper is bent, and smear when rubbed with another wax print. The colors were also not very stable in direct sunlight.
4. High electric power consumption, even in "standby".

Please note that the subject line is about a *COLOR* inkjet printer and the current topic drift is about a comparison of operating costs for *COLOR* laser or LED *COLOR* printers, versus *COLOR* inkjet printers. Of course B&W lasers will be cheaper to buy and own than color. Can we keep this discussion about comparing *COLOR* printers and not muddy the waters by introducing B&W printers?

Replace your monochrome laser printer with the WorkForce WF-M1030 and get the lowest black printing cost in its class - up to 60 percent lower than monochrome laser printers. About $270. No numbers to substantiate this claim, but I suspect they use HP toner cartridge prices at retail prices.

At least for HP, the older B&W and color laser printers are certainly better built, made to last, and more reliable than the current offerings, which seem to be designed to fail. This is a one day collection of printers at the local recycler: HP also perpetuated some known failure mechanisms because their older printers were too reliable and customers were keeping them running for too long. For example, the sticky solenoid causing paper jam problem:

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
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Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

I think John's already posted that link....

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