analog multiplier help

Dec 18, 2005 31 Replies
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Thats a general well known consideration. Read S.A.Maas Microwave Mixers. To make a direct circuit comparison is ALWAYS dangerous because they are too many variables to consider.

Depends exactly on what you want. If you need l proof on why MOS/ FET Mixers are better then their bipolar counter parts Clark Hess 1971 "Communication Circuits" is the place to go.

Well at 10 Mhz they should be OK. They work well at both vhf and uhf I assume.

One of the 3 possible modes in which you can operate a FET as a mixer is in resistive mode changing the values of the resistance or more specifically the conditions of the MOSFET channel between the source and drain from complete depletion to complete invertion or infinite resistance to zero resistance . In these conditions the FET channel resistance is linear and very low intermodulation distortion results.

The book on Clark Hess above gives a detailed analysis using Bessel functions on why FETs have superior distortion performance compared to their bipolar counterparts.

The Gilbert cell multiplier has a differential output current given by the products of the emitter current, tanh(V1/2Vt) and tanh(V2/2Vt). V1 and V2 being the The only way you can get an analog multiplication of the 2 input signals is by assuming V1 and V2 are SMALL. That is by carrying out the Taylor expansion of the tanh expression and approximating it as V1/2Vt. Thats why predistortion is used in Gilbert cells.

Mos have much higher p-p input signal ... compare the mathematical expression for the output drain current in a dual gate Mosfet . id = ....+...+ kVg1*Vg2+.... . k is a numerical constant. The drain current has no limitations as is the case for the Gilbert cell.

Try looking at the following . Tsironis Meierer and R. Stahlmann Dual Gate Mesfet mixers "IEEE Transactions on Microwave theory and Techniques" Vol MTT-32,No.3 Mar.1984"

S.Weaver "TV Design considerations Using Dual Gate MOSFETS "IEEE Transactions on broadcast and Television receivers, Vol. BTR 19 , May

1973"

You don't seem to get the point of my original post . The Op wanted some advice on both discrete and integrated circuit implementation of a mixer. Well while everyone was saying Gilbert cell I wanted him to know there were other options ... None of which were mentioned by anybody! I admitted in my first post they weren't necessarily the best and it would be challenging to use them... but if I was him I'd have taken that road.

"Go easy on the whisky"

theJackal

I know that, but they have also been used for lower frequencies in radios ... from the 60s till today . I 've already said that before.

Yes they are superior to analog multipliers too. I wrote to you the Mathematical reasons why thats so down there . Check up the references.

Well you were talking about a Gilbert cell versus a dual gate Mosfet .

You just have to open up a radio to see a dual gate mosfet being used ... Not a datasheet.

Did he say he was building a scientific instrument ? No he did not. So maybe you are talking about a subject completely new to both of you. You don't seem to be aware of the fact that broadcast transmissions cover 10 Mhz.

Did you read those articles? NO I guess because they mention use of the MOS at lower frequencies. .

"Go easy on the whisky" theJackal

It looks more likely that we are talking about a subject that is compleletly new to you.

It is MHz, not Mhz, and I explicity mentioned long wave and medium wave transmissions, where the mixer is traditionally set up to generate a

455kHz output, while FM goes for 10.7MHz.

Not really. The nice thing about generating a 455kHz or a 10.7MHz intermediate frequency is that you can narrow-band filter it with an elaboratre mutli-pole filter produced in enormous volume, because every consumer radio incorporated at one of each, Spurs that fall outside the bandwidth of this filter are effectively blocked.

The OP wants to generate a 5kHz output from his mixer, and he seems to want to keep the harmonics 40dB down or lower. One would have thought that a multipole 5kHz bandpass filter would deal with them, but maybe he can't cope with the phase shifts through such a filter - I've had that problem.

No, I haven't read the articles, in part because I haven't got easy access to the articles you cited, in part because I haven't had time, and in part because I haven't yet had any real reason to take you seriously. That you can find articles to cite moves you many notches up the pecking order, but your log 1^6 /log 12 x 4 blooper moves you right back down again.

---------------- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Jackal, did you notice that this board is electronics.design, not electronics.basics?

You're an idiot. What you just spouted is so basic it is simply a given at this discussion level for the topic.

Your ignorance is not especially important to anyone but you, but your unforgivable dishonesty of distorting your "quote" of Bill's post in order to make it fit your topic blog, is important and will upset many of this board's regulars.

"go easy on the quick-draw posts"

Don

Bill ...You talk a lot , but I prefer more proof . Maybe some people like that but I don't find that at all convincing. But most of all you're missing the point of what I'm saying ... and you're disproving well known facts and thus showing to be an arrogant person. Let me take 1 example... above you claim that the output of the mixture has to be 5kHz according to the Op. ... Absolutely wrong The Op said his IF filter is centered on that frequency . The output of the mixer contains a mixture of the sums and differences of the LO , signal and carrier frequencies. And i could go on but I must admit though that compared to some people in this newsgroup who have posted to me you show human traits that distinguish us from the lower beasts.

Did you notice the talkative parrot is always tied up in a cage while the the silent birds fly freely.

"Go easy on the whisky"

theJackal

LOL Don you were already on my idiot list so you didn't have to waste your time posting

"Go easy on the whisky"

theJackal

be 5kHz

centered on that

differences of the

These are the "spurs" I was talking about. By multiplying clean sine waves with a good analog multiplier, you can minimise most of the irrelevant sum and difference products - obviously you are stuck with the up-to-20MHz sum associated with the 5kHz difference.

You do go on.

posted to me

Whereas I'm afraid I've got to consign you to the lower beasts.

Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

I think most of us are on your idiot list, so one wonders what list you're on.

Thanks, - Win

Snipped your hogwashed insane riduculousness

BTW "Go easy on the whisky"

theJackal

Any posts containing "John Fields" are automatically deleted by my system

No thats absolutely not true.

The problem is you have a communion in this newsgroup who are a minority of hardcore ignorant loiterers,blatant morons and parasites and it doesn't need a Junior school certificate to understand who exactly these are.

All these people do is cause problems for the intellectually qualified and curious community who want to engage in constructive engineering and scientific discussions in an intermutual exchange media.

You seem to enjoy their company and support as is evident from your exoneration of such elements.

I'm sure you have personal interests.

So keep up the good example whoever you are!

Holy Bible : 1 Corinthians 15:33 (The Jerusalem Bible) Bad friends ruin the noblest people.

"Go easy on the whisky"

theJackal

Any posts containing "John Fields" are automatically deleted by my system

Since the Jackal doesn't seem to realise that he produces ridiculous hogwash - despite the assiduous riducule we heap on him - I suppose that it isn't surprising that he has doubts about the logical consistency of my postings.

So it is back to plan B. I hope he hasn't taken to wearing a tin-foil hat - it doesn't block the reprogamming field, but it reduces the intensity in the critical sub-cortical areas of the brain and slows the process down, which cuts into the time we can devote to Jim Thompson.

Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

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