Change Footprint AFTER routing Protel 99SE???

Protel 99SE. I made a metric footprint for a TQFP64 package. board looks good in the gerber, but when I try to plot it, I get traces overlapping.

I think the problem is because I have a metric footprint, an unfortunate combination of imperial routing grid and snap grid, and a plotter with 5mil resolution. The roundoff error in all the conversion processes to get to the plotter is killing me. I think I can fix it by replacing the metric footprint with an imperial one. The actual dimensional changes are very tiny.

I can't figure out how to swap the new footprint into the board layout without unrouting everything.

I thought "refresh parts in cache" would do it, but doesn't seem to.

Ideas? I really, really don't want to do the layout again.

Thanks, mike

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Reply to
mike
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I think if you just double click on the part and change the footprint to the new name (in Properties) it will work.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

Thanks for the input, I'll try it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by reference point. It's currently pin 1. I am definitely going to have to move the origin and introduce a .0025 mil error in one dimension to get all the pads exactly on the 5 mil grid in both axes.

So far, I've been unable to update the footprint. Seems that refreshing the screen doesn't show the changes until I change to the next part in the library then back to the one I'm editing. Had pads six deep from previous attempts to move stuff. Now that I know about the quirk, I should be able to make it happen.

I think it's definitely a printer...or in this case a plotter problem. Plotter has 5mil resolution. Placement grid was 1mil, routing grid was

16 mil for some unknown reason. The plotter is rounding the coordinate to the nearest 5mil position. When you only have 5 mils between traces, this is a disaster. I'm hoping when I get everything registered on a 5 mil grid, I'll be able to plot it...I hope.

I'm trying to plot this on copper to make the board. Registration is critical. Sure wish I'd figgered this out before I spent all the time on the layout ;-) mike

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Reply to
mike

Mike,

It should work exactly as Spehro states. Just make sure that you have used the same reference point when making both footprints in the library. One alternative method would be to edit the existing footprint in the library, then just click the "Update PCB" button while you have the PCB file open in Protel. I would make a second footprint though and keep the original as well. As far as your overall problem goes, it would seem to more of a printer issue. I don't think changing the footprint to an imperial version is going to do anything for you. Also, when you place the new part no traces are going to automagically snap into place for you. You will have to cleanup the last segment or two of the routes manually where they misalign.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"Spehro Pefhany"  wrote in
message news:5c13p0tafgg895g49qvl01i62i190n110f@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:37:30 -0800, the renowned mike
>
> I think if you just double click on the part and change the
footprint
> to the new name (in Properties) it will work.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Spehro Pefhany
> -- 
> "it\'s the network..."                          "The Journey is
the reward"
> speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
> Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com
Reply to
Brad Velander

Not a problem. I really want it in a different place so all the connections line up exactly on a 5mil grid. As long as it doesn't disconnect itself or unroute, I'm ok. I'm jumping thru hoops here to work around using a plotter that's BARELY up to the task.

Yep, V, R doesn't do it. had to change to the next part in the library and back to get all the elements to show. Video card is a Trident

9750... definitely old.

I don't use Protel very much and have to relearn everything every time I use it.

You sound like you know the tool well... Is there a tutorial on making the autorouter do your bidding? I have one TQFP64 microcontroller that gets routed to a 40-pin dip header. Every time I run the autorouter, I get a different route. If I move the header ever so slightly, I get a WILDLY different route. Often, it threads a track back and forth between dip pins when there's a direct routing channel available. I try keepout traces and layers to block access from the not preferred direction. Sometimes this works, but others, it just causes things to get worse.

I'm routing a single layer board.

Oh, another annoying thing it does is claim to be 100% routed when it still has a dozen nets shorted together.

mike

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Reply to
mike

Mike, The reference location for library parts in Protel is always

0,0 when you made the part. If the part is made offset from 0,0 you will notice that when you place the part you are moving it around by some point that was where 0,0 was relative to the footprint you designed in the library. Same for schematic symbols except that commonly you put the 0,0 reference just at the connection point of any pin. The issue with updating the part footprint is that if the references weren't the same for both versions of the footprint, the new footprint will come into your design at a location offset from the original and you will have to move it manually back into the desired location. If the offset is on some very small grid (multiples of 0.01 mils, 0.00001 inches), precise relocation of the new footprint could be nearly impossible but definitely frustrating.

Typically I design all SMT parts with 0,0 at the centroid pick location. Others design them such that pin one is the reference location (0,0). There is one caveat to using the pin one reference. Protel generates Pick n Place files with 3 coordinates, the reference location, the calculated center of all pads and the pin one location. With asymmetrical parts (DPAKS, TO263, TO252, etc.) Protel cannot calculate the correct center of the device based upon the pads because the pads are not centered within the part outline.

Protel does have an annoying habit of not refreshing the screen as much as they should. This is undoubtedly why you were seeing multiple pad locations onscreen. Just get used to using V, R (View Refresh) often while performing some operations. It is just second nature to me after years. If I pause slightly in my work, my immediate response is to hit V, R. Hold it, I just reread your response. Sounds like your refresh issue is something else. Could it be video card related? Protel hates the older (3 - 5 years) ATI cards. I thought it was the simple refresh issue when I first read it.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander

"mike"  wrote in message
news:4191EC01.10107@netscape.net...
> Brad Velander wrote:
>
> Thanks for the input, I\'ll try it.
>
> I\'m not exactly sure what you mean by reference point.  It\'s
currently
> pin 1. I am definitely going to have to move the origin and
introduce
> a .0025 mil error in one dimension to get all the pads exactly
on the 5
> mil grid in both axes.
>
> So far, I\'ve been unable to update the footprint.  Seems that
refreshing
> the screen doesn\'t show the changes until I change to the next
part in
> the library then back to the one I\'m editing.  Had pads six
deep from
> previous attempts to move stuff.  Now that I know about the
quirk, I
> should be able to make it happen.
>
> I think it\'s definitely a printer...or in this case a plotter
problem.
> Plotter has 5mil resolution.  Placement grid was 1mil, routing
grid was
> 16 mil for some unknown reason.  The plotter is rounding the
coordinate
> to the nearest 5mil position.  When you only have 5 mils
between traces,
> this is a disaster.  I\'m hoping when I get everything
registered on a
> 5 mil grid, I\'ll be able to plot it...I hope.
>
> I\'m trying to plot this on copper to make the board.
Registration is
> critical.  Sure wish I\'d figgered this out before I spent all
the time
> on the layout ;-)
> mike
>
> --
Reply to
Brad Velander

Not that simple. I'm plotting resist on copper and etching the board directly from the plot. I know it's beyond the capability of the process, but the chip don't come in a bigger package and I don't have the option to change the chip. It's becoming a moot point, because I can't find a pen with a fine enough tip with ink that 'resists' the etchant.

We're attempting to build the flash update for a picstart+ programmer. Can buy a pair of upgrade boards for $60, so this project is more of a "me against the tool" challenge than an economic benefit. I'm retired, so if I didn't waste my time on this, I'd have to find something else to waste it on...

As it's a questionable hobby project, I try to limit my questions on the web. You professionals have enough of your own stuff to worry about without me bothering you.

I've been using a DOS version of PADS. Switched to Protel because it runs under windows and I can get more stuff on the higher res screen and was free. Even when I help it, it wants to fly off in another direction and do other stupid things. I expect convergence to a good route, especially when there are obvious better paths...straiaght shot, nothing in the way...short distance... I don't remember having these kinds of routing issues with PADS, but it's been a long time. I may have to try switching back. I'm stuck with tools that can be had for free. That limits my choices ;-) I have Orcad 9 something laying around. Is that autorouter any better? mike

--
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Reply to
mike

You need to adjust your layout rules. If there is insufficient space under the rules given it will try to complete and allow you to "Clean up" the errors.

Reply to
Clarence

Hi Mike, Yes I know the tool fairly well, been using it day in and out for about 5 years now. It is definitely not without it's quirks but then I have never found a CAD tool that wasn't. A lot of the disparaging comments about one package or the other only come from people who haven't used most of them that far past an initial canned tutorial stage. Over my career I have used a lot of the medium priced tools ($5,000 - $20,000) for some period of time.

Since your main problem would seem to be your plotter, do you not have a friend or acquaintance with either a better plotter or a laser that could do the actual prints for you? Set your machine with the appropriate driver and print to a file. Take (or email) the file to their place and plot or print it out? Possibly even a plotting service, fab house or design bureau may do this for a minimal charge.

Yes the Protel autotooter! It is to a large degree just a tool for the salesmen to use when tooting their package to unknowledgeable department managers. I know some people that seem to be able to use it with reasonable results but most just don't even try to use it after playing with it for a few days. That is the same scenario with me, I played with it for a number of days then gave up when anything I tried couldn't stop the nonsense that it would route. I will take a look at work and see if I have any tutorials on the autorouter. Most of the P99SE documentation on the Protel website has slowly vanished over the past few years but I have a bunch archived at work.

One resource that you should know about is the Protel EDA listserver. It is an independent listserver with professional Protel users around the world. Most are in North America or Australia but a number are from Europe and a few in Asia as well. You can usually get good advice and assistance from other users within a couple of hours no matter what time of the day or night. Check it out at:

formatting link

There are a number of users on the listserver that do claim to be able to get the autorouter to work reasonably well for digital designs. One other reason that I don't use it is that my PCB designs are typical mixed analog/digital, RF or even high end microwave, so the Protel autorouter is just not up to that task because of it's limited rules capability.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander


"mike"  wrote in message
news:419342C4.2020804@netscape.net...
>
> Not a problem.  I really want it in a different place so all
the
> connections line up exactly on a 5mil grid.  As long as it
doesn\'t
> disconnect itself or unroute, I\'m ok.  I\'m jumping thru hoops
here to
> work around using a plotter that\'s BARELY up to the task.
>
>
> Yep, V, R doesn\'t do it.  had to change to the next part in the
library
> and back to get all the elements to show.  Video card is a
Trident
> 9750... definitely old.
>
> I don\'t use Protel very much and have to relearn everything
every time
> I use it.
>
> You sound like you know the tool well...
> Is there a tutorial on making the autorouter do your bidding?
> I have one TQFP64 microcontroller that gets routed to a 40-pin
dip
> header.  Every time I run the autorouter, I get a different
route.
> If I move the header ever so slightly, I get a WILDLY different
route.
> Often, it threads a track back and forth between dip pins when
> there\'s a direct routing channel available.  I try keepout
traces and
> layers to block access from the not preferred direction.
Sometimes this
> works, but others, it just causes things to get worse.
>
> I\'m routing a single layer board.
>
> Oh, another annoying thing it does is claim to be 100% routed
when it
> still has a dozen nets shorted together.
>
> mike
Reply to
Brad Velander

Mike, I checked my archives of Protel documents and I don't have anything on the autorouter. Nothing beyond the couple of pages in their manual or general P99SE tutorials. Typical, it is supposed to work magically, if you needed a manual then it obviously doesn't work as well as it should. Rrrrriiiggghhhtt!

Try the Protel EDA list server, I know there are newbies and hobbyists on there periodically. The guys on the list are a very fine group of people and they will do everything in their power to help you as long as you aren't using them just as an online version of the manuals, so that you don't have to read them yourself.

I have never made an autorouter do anything near right, so I can't comment on the Orcad stuff either. I have always pined for a company that would lay out the bucks for an upper level Cooper Chyan autorouter and the course to teach me how to really use it properly. At least with their routers I know the upper-end versions will handle most of the rules required for my typical designs.

-- Sincerely, Brad Velander

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Reply to
Brad Velander

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