When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away? - Page 4

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Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?

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Note this pie was revenue, not units.
On Units, the 8 bit is way out in front.
4 bits is relatively stable at ~ 1B/yr
32 bit units is growing faster than 8 bit, but 8 bit
is still a long way from any plateau.

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There is no dominant uC, like there is a dominant PC CPU device.

That's why marketdroids in 3 different companies claim to be #1 :)

They also use their own yardsticks - eg bundling non-binary compatible
cores into one basket [helps get the numbers up...]

80c51 is easily, and by far, the most sourced core.

It was/is optimised for single-chip embedded control, and so is not
going away any time soon. Things like interrupt priority, atomic boolean
opcodes, register back switching, direct memory opcodes, all factor in this.
  As an 8 bit opcode device, it also has an opcode ceiling, so for
larger-data tasks, something else could be a better choice.

If you want to look at the device space above ~44 pins, and above ~64K,
then yes, there is a growing standard device there, called ARM.

One key driver: it is also multi-sourced.

-jg





Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?

[snip]
:The place where 4-bit processors are still king is at the very low
:power end - watches.  They want that tiny battery to run the device
:27/7 for many years, and fewer transistors still means lower power.
:I don't see that ever changing.
:
27/7 ?  I think your 4-bit watch needs a new battery :-)


Re: When will the 8051 and other 8-bits go away?



David R Brooks wrote:

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Ah.  I forgot that some of you are still living on Sol-3/Terra.
Out here on Alcyone-9, 27/7 is correct.

:)



Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:02:30 +0000, Guy Macon

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   I wonder what's the breakdown of different devices within each
category. Most of the 8-bit range is surely 8051.

   What bugs me about this article (and even this thread) is the lack
of mention of DSP's - 16-bit fixed-point DSP's thesedays just happen
to be microcontrollers with DSP CPU cores. They're probably not the
majority of the 16-bit market, but I wonder what the percentage is.

   As for the future, I don't see where certain bus widths will
survive or go away (the bus is all internal in most microcontrollers
anyway), but perhaps some "paradigms" will go away. For example, the
idea of separate 8-bit and 16-bit microprocessor-only chips (Z80,
68000) have gone away with the ability to put so much more on a chip,
and it only survives with the more powerful 32-bit processors for
general-purpose "desktop" computers. Even those may have cache ram and
such onchip nowadays.

-----
http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley

Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:57:43 GMT, Ben Bradley

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   I just thought of a LARGE volume embedded DSP market: Cell phones
(there's also mp3 players such as the ipod, but that's minor compared
to cellphones). Do any of them use some other microcontroller in
addition to the DSP (perhaps for a very low power mode, though the
DSP's I've seen can operate over quite a range of MIPS and currents)?

-----
http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley

Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 02:03:21 GMT, Ben Bradley

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About 70% use ARM cores with one or two DSPs on the same chip.
Some high-end phones integrate two ARM cores and two DSPs.

Stephen

--
Stephen Pelc, snipped-for-privacy@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
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Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?

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AFAIK, cellular phones all have a "general-purpose" CPU core.
According articles I've read, ARM is the most popular CPU core
for cellular phones.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Isn't this my STOP?!
                                  at              
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Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
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Depends on the process.  To make inexpensive chips, you have to use an
old process, not the latest.  In other words, in early 2005 inexpensive
chips are made in 0.5 micron or larger, not 130 nm or 90 mn.  There are
several reasons for this:

   1)  Mask costs for smaller processes are *much* higher.  This isn't
       likely to change much in the future, so 180 nm and smaller mask
       sets are likely to always be very expensive (hundreds of thousands
       of dollars).  Even though you can amortize the mask cost over a very
       large number of units, it still ends up contributing a significant
       amount to the per-chip cost.

   2)  Wafer starts in older processes are cheaper.  This does shift over
       time, so when 65 nm becomes common, 180 nm will probably be a lot
       cheaper than it is today.

In a 0.5 micron process, you're a lot less likely to be pad limited,
so 4-bit and 8-bit processors with similar amounts of memory and the
same pin count are likely to have different die sizes.

      

Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
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<snip>
It's interesting to compare those numbers with these just quoted by
Philips.

http://www.eeproductcenter.com/micro/opinion/showArticle.jhtml?articleID16%5700460

This has the 8 & 16 bit shares pretty much reversed (& more credible)
than the figures above !?

These inlude forecasts for 2009, and clearly, 8 bits is not going away,
but neither is the 16 bit sector going to collapse.
These figures are also by revenue; do them by volume, and the 8 bit
will continue to be way out in front.

-jg




Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?



Paul Marciano wrote:

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Never.  16 bits is overkill for a talking barbie, keyboard
controller, toaster, mouse, or low-end calculator.  The only
reason more toys aren't using 4-bit processors is because so
much of the die is taken up by bonding pads that there is no
cost savings to be had.

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Pins?  We don't need no steenking pins!  Pry open a toy or a
calculator and try to find the uC pins.  :)

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Not as long as there is a tenth of a penny to be saved by using a
less capable part.  That's a thousand dollars per million units.






Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
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You seem to be unclear on what '8 bit micro' means. If they go into
8 pin devices, how does that mean '8-bit micros have faded away' ?

The answer to this question, is the three P's :
PinCount
PicoJoules
Price

In sheer volumes, 8 bit uC will dominate 32 bit ones for years to come.
Only if you mapped something like shipped-code-size, would they start to
come close.

-jg


Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
8-bit micros will survive as long as they are cheaper to produce than 16-bit
micros.

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Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
Shortly after :

     Teletypes
     Card Punches
     Paper Tape
     Dumb Terminals
     Wooden Pencils

gm


Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
Hello Paul,

I'll second the others who said they are here to stay.

With respect to the 8051 family: AFAIK that is the only family where at
least the simpler versions are second sourced. That is a huge advantage
and this fact alone almost guarantees a long product life. It is also
one reason why I used the 51 in some designs where clients needed to be
able to build them for more than a decade.

Some stuff will simply keep going. Not just in the uC world. There are
airplanes in daily use which are powered by 70 year old engine designs.

How many times has the CD4000 series been declared to be near death? I
still design with these, new packages were offered, prices are low,
everything is well with them.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?

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How many controlsignal does your application need?
Yes, there is the one-wire debug, that means you
need at least 3 pins for a working device and
perhaps 4 pins for a debugable working device.

You could even aditionally multiplex a bunch of analog
inputs and outputs over the very same pin and thus
offload the IO to an external chip.

However when the sum price of the external IO chip
and the cpu counts, one rather spends a few additional
pins for the cpu and have the IO integrated.

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?
Hi
 I'm not sure why I'd want to use a 32 bit processor to
run a toaster or a TV remote?
Dwight


Paul Marciano wrote:
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Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?

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To handle the Web Server needed for the Web Browser based interface :)

[Rest snipped]

Regards
  Anton Erasmus



Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?


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Besides with a 32 bit processor you can get by without
the resistance for the toaster;)


Re: When will the 8051 and othe 8-bits go away?

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Might as well use those Watts for something as they're being
turned into heat...

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  By MEER biz doo
                                  at               SCHOIN...
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