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Re: Tesla Batteries
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 21:43:24 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Higher density means that the gas company has more incentive to run
the lines.  When I was in VT, the gas company agreed to run the lines
up our street and connect everyone if _everyone_ agreed to connect.
Such a deal but some moron decided to stay with LP (the rest of us
used oil).  The gas company ran the lines anyway.

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Yes.  Only during heating season for those who heat with electricity.
The "summer rate" is $.10, IIRC.  Still cheap.  
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This wasn't an early heat pump.  The house was built in 2008.  We were
the first owners.
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That makes solar cheaper (though I was referring to ground-source heat
pumps - same deal).
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Of course you don't know.  You weren't there.

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 11:00:05 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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:
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ote:
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 wrote:
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te:
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ote:
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ve Wilson:
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 fit for the
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n Cupertino,
 got cold.
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city, here
to establish  
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 family
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l, heat pump
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.
t for a
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tween
 heat
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the

.  Lots of people do that here too, VA/MD, but I think it's on the cusp.  B
y the time you get to NY you need to have some other backup heat to make it
 affordable and then you need to consider the system cost.  My heatpump/oil
 burner cost $7,000 while a heatpump/electric backup was $5,000.  Here you'
d be lucky to get your money out of the oil burner.  In NY it's a slam dunk
.  It also seems to produce better heat... actually warm.  
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of homes in the city where there is no gas and a friend has gas 20 miles fr
om any city in rural Tennessee.  
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es, generation, transmission and distribution?  My local utility recently c
hanged their rates to double the fixed price to $20 a month and also raised
 the distribution charges a bit.  They said our bills won't change much bec
ause the cost of generation is dropping!  lol  
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ve room temp.  Blow it around a little and it feels cold.  My latest heat p
ump feels warm coming out of the ducts.  
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Ok, so "builder" quality in heat pumps still suck.  My current unit is a re
placement.  In the intervening 20 years the government mandated a certain l
evel of efficiency and I paid for an extra level above that.  My heat pump  
throws out actual warm air.  Not like a oil burner, but even the register f
eels warm to the feet when I step on it.  It also has a two level fan but I
 don't get how that helps much other than maybe not blowing cold air when t
rying to squeeze out every last drop of heat when the compressor shuts off.
  


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uld be very cost effective.  I would need to see numbers associated with an
y given installation, but I didn't choose a different system because of the
 cost.  I didn't buy the ground-sourced system because they wouldn't quote  
me a number.  They expected me to sign a contract to do the work regardless
 of what the cost turned out to be.  Looking back, I should have gotten the
m to bid the contract in two portions, the fixed price, well defined work p
art and the variable cost, don't know how much work it will be part.  
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de
ost a ground-system can save you, but it will be more than just not using e
xpensive backup heat.  They are cheaper to run all year long.  
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an everyone's estimates.  
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Not sure what happened.  Maybe I was discussing the solar with someone else
.  

We aren't likely to get any real data on the ground sourced heat pump from  
anyone here, but didn't you say the same thing applied to solar, taking eve
rything into account the pay back was potentially non-existent?  I wouldn't
 care if it was the system lifetime.  That means it was a breakeven and we  
all get the benefit of not making as much electricity from carbon sources.
  


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 an open contract that I didn't think to discuss it further and asked him t
o leave.  
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at
as
act that is binding.  
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can't even begin to expect to hold anyone to an estimate.  That's why they  
call it an "estimate".  Read the contract or don't, but that's what's bindi
ng.  
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Ok, I don't know what you are talking about now.  So go on without me.  

  Rick C.

  +-+- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  +-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 20:35:03 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Builder specials do suck.  The one in this house needed a new A coil
after four years (just after we bought the house) and it's bad again.
The whole shootin' match is being replaced Monday.  You get what you
pay for.

The variable speed fan is quieter.  If it's not pumping up a big hill,
the fan can run slower.  The low speed is also used for higher
dehumidification.  The unit "over-cools" the air, causing more water
to fall out.  

Efficiency costs big bux.  One SEER costs about $1K.  The payback is
longer than the life of the unit.

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Of course not.  You can't read.  It's right in front of your eyes!

Re: Tesla Batteries
:
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e:
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ote:
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 wrote:
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com wrote:
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wrote:
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Steve Wilson:
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ood fit for the
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e in Cupertino,
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 it got cold.
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tricity, here
re to establish  
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gle family
well, heat pump
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tem.
cost for a
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 between
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rce heat
se
at the

tic.  Lots of people do that here too, VA/MD, but I think it's on the cusp.
  By the time you get to NY you need to have some other backup heat to make
 it affordable and then you need to consider the system cost.  My heatpump/
oil burner cost $7,000 while a heatpump/electric backup was $5,000.  Here y
ou'd be lucky to get your money out of the oil burner.  In NY it's a slam d
unk.  It also seems to produce better heat... actually warm.  
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's
own
ng
ty of homes in the city where there is no gas and a friend has gas 20 miles
 from any city in rural Tennessee.  
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arges, generation, transmission and distribution?  My local utility recentl
y changed their rates to double the fixed price to $20 a month and also rai
sed the distribution charges a bit.  They said our bills won't change much  
because the cost of generation is dropping!  lol  
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old
above room temp.  Blow it around a little and it feels cold.  My latest hea
t pump feels warm coming out of the ducts.  
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 replacement.  In the intervening 20 years the government mandated a certai
n level of efficiency and I paid for an extra level above that.  My heat pu
mp throws out actual warm air.  Not like a oil burner, but even the registe
r feels warm to the feet when I step on it.  It also has a two level fan bu
t I don't get how that helps much other than maybe not blowing cold air whe
n trying to squeeze out every last drop of heat when the compressor shuts o
ff.  
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What brand?  I found out most companies have multiple brands made on the sa
me assembly line.  Not sure what they do differently other than offer a lon
ger or shorter warranty and advertise more between them.  


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The humidification makes sense, but I don't think the unit even has a measu
rement for that, so how would it know when to and when not?  Running the fa
n at a lower speed means the system would be less efficient.  The main thin
g they did to increase the efficiency was to enlarge the coils to reduce th
e thermal resistance.  Running the fan slower would defeat that.  I've neve
r seen the fan run slow other than at the end of the heat cycle.  


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How long is the life of the unit???  Yours was obviously not so good.  Also
, I know I didn't pay that much more for the extra efficiency.  Or I should
 say that unit price.  I think I paid about a kilo buck more, but it was mo
re than 1 SEER better.  

The way they calculate SEER makes it hard to know what it might save you on
 fuel costs.  But it works better.  My house only feels cold when it *is* c
old, not because the heat pump isn't pumping enough heat to feel warm.  


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 would be very cost effective.  I would need to see numbers associated with
 any given installation, but I didn't choose a different system because of  
the cost.  I didn't buy the ground-sourced system because they wouldn't quo
te me a number.  They expected me to sign a contract to do the work regardl
ess of what the cost turned out to be.  Looking back, I should have gotten  
them to bid the contract in two portions, the fixed price, well defined wor
k part and the variable cost, don't know how much work it will be part.  
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clude
l cost a ground-system can save you, but it will be more than just not usin
g expensive backup heat.  They are cheaper to run all year long.  
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 than everyone's estimates.  
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lse.  
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om anyone here, but didn't you say the same thing applied to solar, taking  
everything into account the pay back was potentially non-existent?  I would
n't care if it was the system lifetime.  That means it was a breakeven and  
we all get the benefit of not making as much electricity from carbon source
s.  
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ign an open contract that I didn't think to discuss it further and asked hi
m to leave.  
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 that
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t was
ntract that is binding.  
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ou can't even begin to expect to hold anyone to an estimate.  That's why th
ey call it an "estimate".  Read the contract or don't, but that's what's bi
nding.  
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LOL...  How could I read it, I wasn't there!  

  Rick C.

  ----+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  ----+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 20:19:41 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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The original?  I think it's "Concord" or some such.  They may have
been someone else's unit that they rebadged but the company no longer
exists.  Parts are available "as found".
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The unit doesn't.  The thermostat does.  Low-speed fans aren't
absolutely necessary.  Nests, for instance, have a mode where it runs
until the humidity target is met or the AC cools 3F below the set
point.  It does the same if there is a low-speed fan available (with
the fan on the low setting).
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Generally 10-15 years.  Heat pumps don't last very long because
they're in year-round use.

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SEER isn't all, either.  It says nothing about the heating ability.
It's a lot more complicated than a single number, as well.  The
manufacturers don't give technical data out.
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Good Lord.  READ!

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 19:15:09 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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It all depends on the COP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance
versus temperature _difference_ between the cold and warm side. When
the temperature difference is too large, the COP drops to 1, i.e. only
the electric power running the heat pump will emerge on the warm side.
As a rule of thumb, keep the COP above 3 for significant savings.  

The warm side temperature depends on the way heat is delivered to the
room, with floor heating +30 C to +35 C should be enough. Other
delivery systems require higher temperatures and hence larger
temperature differences and hence lower COP.

On the cold side. th ground water temperature would be +0 C to +4 C.
OTOH, the winter air temperature varies much more. If the air
temperature is most often above +0 C, the air sourced heat pump is
more effective. If the air temperature remains for longer periods
below 0 C,  ground based system make more sense.


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 11:37:32 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wr
ote:
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son:
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or the
rtino,
old.
here
ablish  
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y
t pump
a
 pumps would be very cost effective.  
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't even get that in my glass of iced tea full of ice!  Around here water te
mperature is much warmer than that, central Eastern Seaboard US.  

Actually, here these systems don't depend on the water temperature unless t
hey are tapping a well.  Usually they depend on the ground temperature.  No
 real water involved.  At least that's what I was told for this area.  Why  
dig 100's of feet when you can just dig a trench?  Every place is different
 in that respect though.  

  Rick C.

  ---+ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 10:02:43 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:
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:
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the
no,
.
e
ish  
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ump

OK I know nothing of the details, but in theory a ground sourced heat pump
should reduce your cooling costs in the summer.  (You are starting with  
cooler fluid..)  

George H.

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 9:59:38 AM UTC-5, George Herold wrote:
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on:
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r the
tino,
ld.
ere
blish  
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 pump
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p
  
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Yeah, you are pumping heat downhill rather than uphill.  Much easier.  If y
ou can get enough heat through you might be able to dump the compressor.  
  

  Rick C.

  -+-- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries

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You are all missing the point. No matter what kind of heating system you
use, you still lose heat when you need to open the windows to ventilate
the old stale air.  

A Heat Recovery Ventilation (HRV) system can recover from 70% to 85% of
the heat in your exhaust air and bring fresh air into your home.  

In the summer, the situation is reversed. You want to keep the hot outside
air from entering your home, and still exhaust the old stale air. The HRV
switches automatically so you don't have to do anything.  

In humid climates, you may wish to examine ERV (Energy Recovery
Ventilation.) Google tells all you need to know.  

HRV systems are expensive. For a large room or a small apartment, you may
wish to try a DIY approach. You can make a very effective system for much
lower cost. See my first post above.  

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 06:57:49 +0200, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wrote:

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Around here, we have maybe a foot of topsoil and then rock. That would
be hard to drill.

But the climate is very mild. We don't have a/c and it never freezes
here near the coast. Our usual gas+electric bill is around $100 a
month.

We don't have many million dollar houses either!



--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics  


Re: Tesla Batteries

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I used to live in the bay. Now, I could not possibly afford the homes I  
used to own.

Google, Facebook and others have raised home prices throughout the region.  
There are plenty of million dollar properties in the bay. Gentrification  
has increased home prices in SF. Many companies supply busses to transport  
their employees from SF to the bay. You need to get an appraisal to find  
out how much your home is worth. You might be surprised.

The weather in SF is moderated by the ocean. You don't need much heating or  
A/C.

Further north, the climate is more severe. House constuction has improved  
the sealing so heat losses are reduced.

This creates a problem where stale house air has nowhere to go. The only  
solution is to open windows to get fresh air for ventilation. This defeats  
the purpose of the sealing and increases heating costs.

The solution is a Heat Recovery Ventilation (HRV) system as I described  
above. Heat Energy Recovery (HEV) systems may be required in different  
climate regions. Google tells you all you need to know.

Stay healthy. Get fresh air in your home.


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 11:52:15 PM UTC-5, Steve Wilson wrote:
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n:
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pump
  
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.  
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t  
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or  
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s  
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My house is paid off so that means older than 30 years and not of the herme
tically sealed construction.  No need for heat exchangers, the ventilation  
is built in, lol!  There are enough small air leaks around windows and such
 that I don't have to worry about radon either.  

  Rick C.

  --+- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 21:53:36 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Illogical.  My house is paid off, too, but it was built in 2007.

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There are in all houses.  Sealing a house completely is a fools
errand.

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 16:36:42 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen


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Correctly dimensioned air-to-air heat pumps are good down to about -15
C, but below that it is as bad as direct electric heating. To avoid
wearing the heat pump during these cold periods, some extra heat
sources are required from direct electric or burning wood etc.
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In colder climate ground sourced heat pumps are often used. A single
100-150 m deep hole should be enough to heat a single house. It takes
only a few days to drill such hole even into granite, so the cost


Using floor heating only a slight temperature increase (20-30 C) is
needed so the heat pump  is going to have a good COP.


Re: Tesla Batteries
On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 11:30:59 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com  
wrote:
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I don't think you appreciate how much it costs to install a ground sourced  
heat pump.  I talked to someone once and while a conventional system would  
cost around $5,000 at the time, they would not write a contract for a fixed
 price and said they often cost some $25,000.  They don't drill deep holes,
 at least not here.  The system they described was to simply dig enough to  
bury enough tubing to act as a heat exchanger in a closed loop system.  I b
elieve the big question was how difficult it would be to dig a large enough
 hole.  

I am in central Virginia where air cooled heat pumps are perfectly practica
l.  I suppose the energy savings in colder climates would be more significa
nt.  

  Rick C.

  +-- Get 6 months of free supercharging
  +-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 23:30:34 -0800 (PST),
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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That is peanuts if the investment usable life is 20-30 years, so just
$1000/year. So you have to save that amount compared to alternate heat
sources, such as direct electric heating.
.  
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Burying plastic pipes just a few meters just a few meters below ground
is a messy thing. It is OK for a new installation before building the
house,  but as a retrofit, you are going to destroy your garden. In
addition, you need a large parcel, you might not get enough heat from
a small suburban parcel.  

Drilling deep (100-150 m) wells into the bedrock and you could have
your own heat well on every small suburban parcel.

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Re: Tesla Batteries
On 13/01/2019 09:27, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wrote:
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Nobody in their right mind uses resistive electric heating except for  
short bursts to quickly warm up a room.

Ground source heating in the UK sort of works (better than air source  
which just freezes up solid) but the running, maintainance and servicing  
costs are extortionate. I know someone who installed it and their total  
heating bills are now more than when they had classical oil fired CH.
(including the cost of keeping the contraption working)

They ought to have been a text book case where it should have been able  
to deliver since they are retired and in the house most days.

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Where I live you would have to go about 1km down to get 20C rocks or 30C  
at 2km down. That is a distinctly non-trivial drilling depth.

In the middle of Yellowstone or Iceland you might be onto a winner.

--  
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Tesla Batteries
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 17:18:05 +0000, Martin Brown

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Resistive heating is very common in Finland, not to mention Norway.
After rainy years, there is a lot of hydro, so the prices have been
down.  Unfortunately due to the action of the greenies and after dry
years, the prices have increased significantly, so a lot air-to-air
heat pumps have been installed. This helps a lot during spring and
autumn.

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You do not need such high temperatures for a ground sourced heat
pumps. 0-5 C ground water temperature is enough. You have to make sure
that the well is deep enough compared to the heat demand or the ground
water will freeze, thus preventing any heat transfer. For a big
apartment building, you will need to drill several wells to satisfy
the heat demand.

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In Iceland, some district heating consists of a hot water pocket deep
down in the ground, simple plastic pipes going to the houses and the
mildly warm water is simply released into the environment.



Re: Tesla Batteries
On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 1:03:15 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com wr
ote:
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"Greenies"?  Greenlanders control the price of electricity in Iceland?  A n
ew expression is born, "What's that got to do with the price of hydro in Ic
eland?"  


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Why would ground water be so cold?  Do you mean surface water?  Around here
 the temperature of both the ground and underground water at 30 feet is con

?C).  


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Works great for heating... what about cooling?  

  Rick C.

  -+++ Get 6 months of free supercharging
  -+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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