Tesla Batteries

And Wales.

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And the UK is full of domestic gas-fired central-heating and hot-water system.

The country is covered by a natural gas distribution network.

You don't actually need mountains for pumped water storage, and pumped compressed air storage is even easier to accommodate.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Reply to
bill.sloman
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You are an amazing conversationalist. Your entire post said nothing at all of substance. Glad you took the time to participate in the conversation... or not.

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

So care to explain your statements in English?

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

en.

Or maybe we take more baths/showers? In any event, we use more power at ho me in the morning which has overlap with business.

So winter time usage? Still, wouldn't that peak at night? Peak energy con sumption is a time of day issue. Or are you saying the problem was not the generating capacity, but that there was not enough fuel supply to keep the generators running????

Perhaps you are not digging far enough into the issue to understand that th e peak generation limitation generally only impacts certain times of the da y. Isn't that clear? It would make no sense to ask heavy industry to shut down at other times.

I don't know what an electric storage heater is. You mean they would make heat from electricity and store it in hot water or something similar? We'v e talked about that here and it takes a lot of water to store much heat. P hase change stores a lot more heat over a narrower temperature range.

I guess the above is a British thing that never made it over hear. I still don't get what any of this has to do with "daytime is a ripoff" or what yo u are trying to say about it.

If by "bank" you mean getting paid, then yes. Some states may limit your b enefit to simply reducing your bill rather than getting cash, so that I sup pose would be like "banking" it. Many places let you get cash, but only fo r the generation and transmission portion of the bill.

Not sure why you say that. Tesla car batteries are regularly charged at a full C if not a bit higher. They are tapered off to a lower rate over 50% charged. The max discharge rate is over 400 kW from my 100 kWh battery. S omething like 515 HP, but of course that is sporadic, not remotely sustaine d.

I thought a standard outlet was 9 amps at 240 volts, that's more like a bit over 2 kW. Is it more like 13 amps? Here it is 1.44 kW, 12 amps at 120 v olts (the current for continuous loads is derated to 80%).

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

y
n

"Cheap" is a relative term. Gas isn't a tenth the cost of other fuels. So the operation of a gas turbine is still dominated by the cost of the fuel when run significantly. Because of the peak demand issue they are often on ly run for a few hours a day if at all. Then the capital cost of the plant is the issue.

Or completely eliminate the need for some number of peak generating plants.

s

I wonder about the cost compared to battery generation. Any idea? I expec t it would be cheaper if you have the geography for it. But it can consume a lot of land depending on the elevation you have to work with.

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

Perhaps hot water? Electric heat in homes and businesses ramping up from their nightly setback?

Reply to
krw

'Your statements' is a lot too vague for me. And having read your comments in other replies, it seems that once again it is pointless pointing anything out for you. You & Bill are a right pair.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

If you can't be bothered to speak in a clear manner, then obviously what you have to say can't be very important.

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

OP could get a Tesla and an array like yours and use the array to charge the Tesla. Then run an inverter off the Tesla to power the home when not driving it.

Then you get both an off-grid power solution AND transportation, hey hey!

Reply to
bitrex

lol

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

Where do you get any power from the Tesla other than the 12 volt lighter sockets? Oh, yeah, they also have some USB sockets.

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

Evidently.

No look at the graphs. It peaks mid day.

Some of each. They don't have any reserve capacity and fuel for the kit they have as supply of last resort was running low. In addition it was cold over most of Europe so they couldn't borrow power from neighbours using the interconnects to mainland Europe.

The sort of industries they had to shut down run 24/7 and have to put into a safe dormant state. A few heavy industries can switch on or off at a moments notice and are used to balance the grid - salt electrolysis at Runcorn for example.

Typically they were a bunch of firebricks with a resistive heating elements inside them. It worked OK in buildings that had been designed with electric storage heating from the outset. It was rubbish everywhere else - big ugly bulky metal boxes that got mad hot overnight and were stone cold by the time you really needed them in the early evening.

To get the so called Economy 7 tariff cheaper at night you pay more for daytime usage.

But do you get paid for the *energy* you actually export to the grid or a fraction of the energy that you generate (UK it is the latter).

The question really is what is a sustainable discharge rate for one of these things that will not lead to long term damage.

Do the batteries not get rather warm at a >1C charge rate?

UK domestic sockets are rated for 13A full 3kW load.

Modern recommendations are that portable loads should not exceed 2.4kW as plugs tend to get warm on 3kW and some nasty Chinese made extension blocks will melt if you try to draw that much from a single socket.

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

Are you really so thick?

MOD = Ministry Of Defence SOP = Standard Operating Procedure

1899 = when wet cell NiCad were invented

NiFe and NiCad KOH wet cells (and silver zinc in missiles) were on the government surplus market in the 1950's and 60's. Wet cells are still in use for fork lift trucks, aviation and emergency power systems.

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NiCad were the least tolerant of abuse by far. NiFe would take an amazing amount of abuse and still bounce back - capacity was less.

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

Is electricity widely used in the USA for heating? UK most space heating is mains gas or oil fired where mains gas is not available. Both are considerably cheaper than using electricity for space or water heating.

Apart from demand led flash electric showers I can't see that there should be a big hot water hit. Most hot water tanks are well insulated.

--
Regards, 
Martin Brown
Reply to
Martin Brown

I don't see any time of day graphs, only an annual supply shortfall graph.

There is a paragraph saying, "One measure will see the National Grid give f inancial incentives to energy intensive companies that agree to cut their e lectricity use at peak times ? between 4pm and 8pm ? on win ter workdays."

That's about the same as our summer peaks. I guess it's summer all year ar ound in Britain.

So regarding the "heavy industrial users" being paid to drop off the grid, that would only be needed around the peak time, right? No point in shuttin g down 24 hours when only the peak needs to be mitigated.

I would be surprised if the weather varied much across Europe. If they can 't get power from the neighbors because everyone is seeing the same sort of weather, what would be the purpose of the links?

"Moments notice"? They don't really have to shut down 100%. They just nee d to scale back enough to mitigate the peak. What sort of industries can't do that?

My house is on time of use billing, but the expensive time is peak which va ries with season, not "day" vs. "night". The off peak rate is about 1/2 (h ard to say exactly because the rates are broken up and only generation is c heaper) and on peak is five times more expensive. So far I'm pretty sure i t is paying for me. It's not clear to me if this is better for the utility company.

That's very odd, but I guess it's their way of subsidizing solar. Will the subsidy be permanent? Here it is by law, but only for homes and limited i n capacity and has to be renewed periodically.

I'm sure it is the same as the charge rate.

Yes, they produce heat and are adequately cooled. Fortunately they can be warm so simple cooling is adequate. They can't be too cold however and mus t be heated in very low temps.

I wonder where I got the 9 amp thing. 2.4 kW is 10 amps, right? If we had 3 kW outlets I wouldn't need to put in an expensive wall connector for my Tesla.

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

then.

Gas is not widely used in homes since it is not universally available. Whe re it is available it is cheaper than electricity... everything pretty much is. Heat pumps are used to good advantage in much of the country. They a re not so practical in areas with temperatures much below freezing where ba ckup heat must be used. Most of the US has few days or nights so cold. Th e most common substitute is fuel oil for heat. Hot water is pretty much alw ays electric unless gas is available.

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

Attention! The following workers will not be paid from 4pm to 8pm today as we'll not be building cars on that line.

Building 6 workers will not be paid between 3 and 7 pm today as we won't be needing engines during that time.

Just in time delivery portals will be shuttered between 2 and 10 pm as we have no place to store the excess inventory. 16 new part time workers will be hired to restock between 10pm and 2AM.

Paint dryers will be shut down between 4 and 8PM and will be ready to accept new cars after the system reaches operating temperature at 9PM.

I'm sure you can manage all that. Apply there for a job. You'll love it.

Reply to
Mike

Please tell us you're kidding. I could use some Spanish weather right now.

NT

Reply to
tabbypurr

Do you really thing they expect companies to shut down on an hourly basis with no notice? If they are writing contracts to pay companies for shutting down, I'm pretty sure they are planning more than a day ahead.

Then on the other side, there are jobs where you are told on a day to day basis if you will be working or not. No, it doesn't make for a lot of job satisfaction, but it happens.

A friend had his work week cut to 32 hours for a good period. I guess the alternative is looking for a new job. When enough people do that he would get his 40 hours back I suppose. It's all better than not working.

So a factory that has to cut off the high power motors, heaters or electrolysis between 4 and 8 PM can still produce whatever they make the other 20 hours a day and the 4 hours shutdown of the high current stuff lets then do maintenance and such.

Was this really something you can't see, or did you just feel you needed to make a joke?

Rick C.

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Reply to
gnuarm.deletethisbit

I made no mention of not planning ahead. What good does planning do when the employees don't have options?

You're oversimplifying a very complex interwoven society. Who is gonna take your kids to school when your work hours interfere? What if you gotta be home at certain hours so your wife can work? You think the others on this long chain of consequences will be sympathetic?

YOU as an individual can make a choice whether you take your bath at a time when energy to heat the water is more available. If YOU decided when I could take my bath, we'd have a discussion!

The world works on coordinated schedules. Changing them is not at all simple.

My footprint on the planet is very small. It's my choice. I do what I can. But I don't tell other people what to do and punish them if they don't.

Your choices are yours and made to optimize YOUR existence. When you choose for me, you're gonna get push back.

Reply to
Mike

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