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Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Sunday, 9 June 2013 23:31:24 UTC+10, Joerg  wrote:
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.de> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:

<snip>  
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that  
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Nothing - per se - with tapped inductors. Flyback transformers necessarily  
produce a varying voltage, and you can fudge the average voltage to the val
ue that you want by pulse width modulation. There are lots of ways of varyi
ng the pulse width. If you use a tapped inductor in a flyback circuit you'v
e got another parameter to vary - but the way you get a variable voltage is
 essentially by PWM.  
  
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t  
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og  
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It does make life easier. There's not a lot of economy of scale in transfor
mer winding, so a custom-designed transformer isn't much more expensive tha
t an off-the-shelf part, and the off-the-shelf part is almsot always going  
to be bigger and heavier and contain more expensive copper than the purpose
 designed part.
  
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get  
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For some unspecified value of "rather".
  
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You need the manufacturer's data sheet

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electronics/Res
ources/Data%20Sheets/BUS_Elx_PM_4301_VERSA_PAC.pdf

to make sense of what it is. It's got 12 pins, and the manufacturer claims  
to offer 500 variations. Digikey has 600 in stock of that particular specif
ication, so presumably somebody is buying them regularly  
  
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I'd call that a common-mode choke.

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But you could probably do more with more.
  
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ff-  
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At that time? Getting stuff from France or Germany was pretty much impossib
le, and the US was even further away, and their wound products didn't meet  
European safety specifications. Delay lines were about the only wound parts
 I ever thought about getting from US suppliers, and the UK sources were us
ually good enough.
  
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, as  
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.
  
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f  
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They were the best of the UK distributors. Nobody has everything, but Farne
ll came closest.
  
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d
  
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d
d  
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At Cambridge Instruments we got a lot of attention - 100 electron microscop
es a year isn't volume production, but they contained a lot of parts, some  
of them rather expensive. Analog Devices had Barry Gilbert come around once
, but he was pushing stuff that we weren't interested in.

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and
to
  
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ion.
  
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Primarily because the quote from EPCOS is never going to arrive, if you are
n't in a more-than-10k-a-year business
  
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d  
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os
  
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If you get quoted an NRE to pay.
  
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the  
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If you've done enough of more or less the same design.

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Or if you can throw out a lot of parts if you use a purposed-designed multi
-tapped transformer.
  
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Companies that paid internal royalties always had to stop it because the R&
D lab ended up getting more money than the rest of the company would tolera
te.

Efficiency isn't really the metric here - effectiveness is what counts.

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EMI Central Research's "Chief Scientist" used to be it's manager until they
 caught him doing an end run around the bureaucrats. It wouldn't have been  
a problem if they hadn't been War Office bureaucrats.
  
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Often started up with capital from a larger firm who used to employ the peo
ple who run the start-up.
  
<snip>

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
Bill Sloman wrote:
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That still doesn't explain what you mean with "clue".

[...]


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The catalog part does not come with huge MOQ or NRE requirements and is
available instantly. Both are often key.


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Regarding designs with challenging inductive parts about 30-40 SMPS (I
stopped counting at some point), flybacks, other architectures. Then
pulsers, fuel injection circuits, fast isolation interfaces, contactless
power transfer, and so on.


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http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electronics/Resources/Data%20Sheets/BUS_Elx_PM_4301_VERSA_PAC.pdf
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That's why there is a clickable link in all Digikey parts listings.

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<raises hand>


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Oh no, that's definitely not its intended purpose. A CM choke with same
capabilities (for diff lines) can be made much smaller and cheaper. One
classical application for these dual inductors are SEPIC supplies.


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Yes, but usually it's not necessary.


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Then why could I get parts from the US in the 70's and 80's? I lived in
Germany back then. For orders we use telex machines, I even used to have
an old Lorenz myself. Man was that thing loud (didn't have a muffling hood).


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Uhm, nope, many of them did and still do. You just had to look for the
magic sequence UL/CSA/VDE (no CE back then).


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I found that almost nothing could beat Belfuse and Kappa delay lines.
Except for the ones we had custom-made.


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Maybe in the UK.

[...]

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Then you need to get on the telephone and it will arrive. I have a habit
of wiggling my way up the command chain if a company I need something
from behaves too recalcitrant. That does get the attention eventually,
usually before it has percolated up to their CEO.


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I always did. Recently I've notice large companies chickening out at
times, telling me "It can't be done". A few months later we have "It
can't be done" in production, but without them. As I said, real progress
rarely happens in bigger places.


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When it comes to converters, I have. To the point where the things start
coming out of my ears, like eating a certain dish too many times.


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Unless absolutely needed, that takes too long.


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Venture capitalists see that a wee bit differently. And I find that this
has a sobering effect on design teams, makes them do their work swiftly
because there isn't a seemingly infinite amount of money and certainly
no lifetime employment.

[...]


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That was the case with the first start-up I was part of. But the larger
firm was not large by common standards, about 300 employees.

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
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 <snip>

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It might if you thought about it a bit harder.

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The parts I got wound didn't come with huge MOQ or NRE requirements.
One man and his coil winding machine don't work that way. Like I said,
there's not a lot of economy of scale in transformer winding. If you
are getting stuck with huge MOQ and NRE requirements, you are buying
from the wrong suppliers.

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Who hasn't? Why do you think that it's a big deal? I did notice that
junior engineers did tend to be shy of transformers, and you had to
hold their hands a bit to persuade them to use them, but once you'd
got them used to the transformer equation

V1= L1.dI1/dt + M.dI2/dt and V2= M.dI1/dt + L2. dI2/dt

they usually got more relaxed.

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2

I certainly couldn't find it - the clickable links gave me the circuit
diagram and the pin-out, but no parameter data. Farnell does better.

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If you buy 1k or so per month, that would do it. If you stop, the
stock holding might drop to zero.

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For a particular voltage level and power rating. More volts and you
saturate the core, more current and the core gets too hot. Less of
either and you are buying more core or more copper than you need.

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But might be cheaper or simpler.

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d).

I had to go through the purchasing department. If I threw a tantrum I
could usually get an order number and phone through an order myself,
but only to UK suppliers (which did include agents for US firms, who
seemed to think that surface mail was the only way to shift goods).

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            ... and their wound
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They do now.

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That was starting to happen in the late 1970's, but you couldn't rely
on it.

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       ... Delay lines were
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I usually didn't need anything particularly good. The one time I did -
for the Cambridge Instruments "Alvey" shaped-beam electron beam
lithography machine - we did design our own, but the project got
cancelled before we could build one.

<snip>

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They were pretty good in the Netherlands around 2000 - we did use
other distributors, including some big German suppliers, but Farnell
was fast and remarkably comprehensive.

<snip>

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i've spent enough time on the phone trying to do exactly that to find
that claim hard to believe. You can beat the telephoe run-around if
you are persistent enough, but life's too short to make a habit of it.

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 <snip>

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Or designing a circuit one way so often that you fail to realise that
that particular circuit could have been better designed another way.

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The usual balance of cost of design amortised over the production
cycle. It helps if you are used to exploiting and designing multi-coil
wound parts.

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Venture capitalists are particularly short-sighted. For some
innovative projects they are the right source of funding, but you need
to know pretty much exactly what you are planning to make if you go to
them for funding. Including market projections and a cash flow
analysis that includes projected sales income.

Bell Labs and EMI Central Research had room for more speculative and
open-ended projects - like the transistor and the brain-scannner.

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Sure but the point is to be able to write off the start-up if it fails
without writing off the parent organisation.

--
Bill sloman, Sydney



Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Monday, June 10, 2013 6:40:46 AM UTC+2, Bill Sloman wrote:
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s
152
..

A some point someone you would need to face the fact that you have been pro
ven wrong and stop arguing. You might actually learn something instead of t
rying to prove you own point. You've even learned I hope that Farnell is no
t the only way to go ;-)

My favorite is Digikey for parts search, Findchips.com for price and availa
bility search.

Regards

Klaus

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Monday, 10 June 2013 17:50:10 UTC+10, Klaus Kragelund  wrote:
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re  
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is
  
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ess
68152
i...  
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R-  
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me  
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ne
roven wrong and stop arguing.

Sadly for your thesis, Joerg hs to prove me wrong first.

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nt.

The point about the virtues Digikey's search engine was new to me, but I ha
d to complain about Farnell's to provoke that response. Scarcely an argumen
t for shutting up and treating Joerg as infallible (though he comes closer  
than most).

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I've never thought that Farnell was the only way to go, but it is a represe
ntative broad-line distributor, and a handy source of examples of the how t
he breed behaves.
  
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Over the years I've ended up buying more parts from Farnell than anybody el
se. Digikey has gaps in it's coverage.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney



Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
Bill Sloman wrote:
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Looks like you can't explain your own arguments :-)


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Sure there are economies of scale. Big time. At one end of the scale you
have your one man with the old steam-engine, at the other you have a
building the size of half a soccer stadium with myriad machines, all
SCADA controlled.

[...]


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How many switchers have you designed for production?

[...]


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This time try it with your glasses on: Look on the left, for the word
"Datasheets". Click the link next to it, says "VERSA-PAC" which is the
product name. And ... voila ... full datasheet comes up.


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They typically keep a few on hand then.


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Cores saturate with amps, not with volts :-)

These dual inductors are quite universal. On a recent power supply that
contains four switchers I use the same dual inductor for two grossly
different ones (to reduce parts variety in the BOM).


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More pins are simpler?


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When I embarked on my first job and saw this ancient purchasing
department system I started pushing for more autonomy right away, and
got it. Shortly thereafter we instituted "international sourcing" and
that made life a ton easier.


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They even did in 1986.


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Sure you could. We did have a marvelous tool: The fax machine. IIRC the
older ones were called Rapidfax and had a digital protocol. I typically
asked for a faxed copy of the cert.

[...]


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My experience is exactly the opposite. But first you have to find out
who the movers and shakers are. Like the VP of Sales, and then possibly
the CEO. I became pretty good at snooping out their direct contact info.

[...]


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I almost always start from a blank sheet and low-cost designs are one of
my specialties.

[...]


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Sure, to me that is part of engineering.


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This is not reserved for large labs. How do you think this one came about?

http://www.analogconsultants.com/papers/pcc_1.pdf

Very small company, venture-started, we certainly did not have a
bottomless R&D account.

[...]

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 00:34:59 UTC+10, Joerg  wrote:
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There's a point where further explanation is flogging a dead horse.

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s  
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A myriad machines, all making small batches of small transformers under num
erical control, doesn't translate into huge MOQs and big NRE's. It doesn't  
take a lot of programming to change the wire size and the number of turns.
  
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ss

One, and it was part of a thermostat. We mostly bought them in.
  
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8152
...

That pulls up the same "data-sheet" that I found that covers 500 different  
devices. I was hoping for something a little more specific - as I said, Far
nell does better.
  
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Sceptical snort.
  
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The core gets saturated by the magnetising current, which is volts times ti
me.
Typically this is quite a bit less than the current you feed into the input
 windings and take out of the output windings to transfer the power you are
 putting through the transformer. I'd have thought that you would have appr
eciated the distinction, if you'd done as much magnetic design as you claim
.

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What - precisely - was the gross difference?
  
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No, but the rest of the circuit might be.

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n
ve
  
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Interesting. When I worked at ITT-Creed 1979-82 some of the people I was wo
rking with were busy getting Group 3 fax machines from various manufacturer
s to talk to one another the way the ITU specifications said they should. I
t kept them busy.
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it
  
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rt  
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Nobody starts from a completely blank sheet. Some people get so obsessed wi
th low cost that they won't use 0.1% resistors even when they do give you t
he cheapest over-all solution.
  
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is  
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y
  
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But not innovation.
  
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?
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You've talked about that project before. You knew pretty exactly what you w
anted to do, but you didn't have a clue if you could do it when you went af
ter the capital, so your backers must have known that there was a fair chan
ce that they'd lose everything that they put in.

That's what venture capital is all about.

My wife and I had dinner in Melbourne last Thursday with an old friend of m
ine (we were undergraduates together, 50 years ago) who - eventually - made
 a lot of money (most which he's used up) out of a better way to make a con
focal microscope. Tektronix put in an essentially identical - provisional -
 patent on the same idea three weeks before his but dropped it at the end o
f the provisional period.

The big research lab came up with the idea a few days earlier than a pair o
f more isolated innovators on the other side of the Pacific, but didn't car
ry it through.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney



Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
Bill Sloman wrote:
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In your case I often have that impression.


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It usually does.


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So that one thermostat made you the expert?

[...]


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Maybe read up a bit on switchers? :-)


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You designed one switcher. So that makes you the expert ...


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Power levels different by a factor of five, output voltage range by a
factor of three. Parts commonality is a major factor in overhead of a
company and thus overall product cost.

[...]


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I only had that problem with very long distance, across oceans. Not so
much between us and headquarters which ws 6000 miles, but to places in
Canada, for example. The trick was to ratchet down the transmission
speed, before it gets to the point where it aborts with a transmission
failure. Sometimes to 1200bd which was very painful because of the price
gouging telco monopolies. At two bucks a minute that kind of matters. So
we kept messages as brief as possible.

Another thing back then was that transmissions at off-peak hours tended
to work better. Which is why I was glad that my fax had a scheduler
built in.

[...]

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I often do.


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I will only use them where needed. There were designs where I backed off
to 10% and even 20% (untrimmed), for consumer mass products that can
matter, big time.


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Sure it is. Even research has to be planned to some extent, else you can
quickly see the plugs pulled.


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That's how all venture capital deals work. They have to get the warm and
fuzzy about the project, the market, plus the people involved. Ye olde
due diligence. If only one of these isn't 100% -> no dough.

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That is one of my gripes with big research, especially if
taxpayer-funded. They often do stellar work and then completely bungle
the commercial side of it.

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On 06/10/2013 02:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
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I interviewed with Tektronix's Beaverton lab in 1987, as well as HP Labs  
on Page Mill Rd, before going to IBM.  Trust me, Tektronix was _not_ a  
major research lab.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--  
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
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Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
Phil Hobbs wrote:
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[...]

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No, Tektronix isn't a place I'd consider a major research lab even
though they did contribute majorly. For example, their coax line pulser
stuff. That was really an engineering gem.

What I meant was large gvt labs in industrialized countries. When it
comes to commercialization of taxpayer-funded research results they
often, well ... don't get me started. Gets my blood boiling because I am
a taxpayer :-)

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:08:05 -0400, Phil Hobbs

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I interviewed with HP. The guy looked at my resume and said, "The
first thing you have to do is decide if you're an engineer or a
programmer." It went downhill from there.


--  

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
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Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 04:56:56 UTC+10, Joerg  wrote:
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<snip>
  
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Obviously not. Like I said, we didn't design many switchers. There were qui
te a few other wound components, and a few more that got designed and bread
-boarded, but not built.


<snip>
  
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You may not see what I'm saying, but it's a valid distinction - essentially
 what makes transformers better devices for getting power across an isolati
on barrier or a voltage difference than simple fly-back-coupled inductor pa
irs.

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It's not the only one I designed, merely the only one I got into production
. I'm not claiming the credit for stuff that other engineers turned into pr
oduct.

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So you could trade off having more magnetising current in the higher voltag
e part (in the primary coil), as opposed to having a bigger power-shifting  
current in the higher voltage part (flowing through both primary and second
ary coils)?

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Up to a point. And not for parts being used in volume. At some volume, payi
ng for a more expensive part is going to be more expensive than tying up a  
buyer for an extra hour every month and finding room for another bin in sto
res.
  
<snip>

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So you think about using valves for the job, and search the web for every p
ossible new integrated circuit that might have been introduced since you di
d a similar job? You can't - and shouldn't - set aside everything you've do
ne before, and you shouldn't fool yourself about our innate tendency to dis
tort problems into variations of problems we've solved before.

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But not when parts commonality is crucial.


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That "some extent" is the tricky bit.

The point about research is that you don't know what you are going to find  
- otherwise it wouldn't be research - and you can't plan how you are going  
to exploit a break-through if you don't know what kind of break-through you
r research is going to uncover.
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That's exactly what happened there - the Australian patent was eventually s
plit between my mate and his co-inventor, who happened to work for CSIRO -  
the big Australian-government-funded Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial
 Research Organisation. CSIRO did nothing with it.

CSIRO does have it's commercial successes. Not every development is bungled
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Scientific_and_Industrial_Researc
h_Organisation

Varian bought up their atomic absorbtion spectroscopy invention fairly earl
y on - in 1969 I tried for, but didn't get a job with the Frew family that  
got the first machines onto the market. CSIRO's developers used the Cambrid
ge Instruments EBMF 10.5 to create the holograms that went into the first p
olymer banknotes, which is how I got to know about that one.  

EMI essentially went bust because they stuck too much capital into their bo
dy-scanner and couldn't get the machines into the customer's hand quite fas
t enough - Jimmy Carter didn't help - so commercial research labs aren't pe
rfect either.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney


Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
Bill Sloman wrote:
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[...]

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One is in a SEPIC, the other in a buck where the 2nd winding is merely
used to generate a piggy-backed negative voltage almost for free.

[...]


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What I meant is starting with a clean slate when doing a design. Of
course everybody draws on their education, previous experience, and so
on. And we do not have to start each project with Maxwell's equations.

Haven't done a tube design in ... almost forever. But they sure were
fun. RF stuff, BIG.


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Sure, even then. Example: You have 10k pull-ups for logic stuff but
otherwise no 10k resistors in dividers or other ciruits that require
high precision. So I told them to ease off to 20% for those.

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Then we have different definitions for the word research. To me, for
example, trying to find a cure or treatment for a disease is research.
Because when you start you don't know how to get there. But you can
still plan your path, define a budget, and so on. It's done all the time
in industry.

[...]


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Scientific_and_Industrial_Research_Organisation
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Sometimes I wonder where the taxes going to such large organisations are
really a wise investment. Aside from botched commercializations these
enties often become heavily politicized, as outlined in your link.

However, society needs some folks who do basic research. One should just
not overdo it.

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Big ones often aren't. They tend to become bureaucratic and there is too
much tenure going on.

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 10:13:19 UTC+10, Joerg  wrote:
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<snip>
  
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George Kent had a wide range of parts - pretty much every E12 resistor, exc
ept 18k, until my boss got peeved and designed a circuit with 18k resistor  
where everybody else was using 10k. We didn't pay much for our standard 1%  
600mW  18mm pin-spaced (actually 0.7 inch) resistors, so adding a looser to
lerance part to the range wouldn't have saved much money.  
  
  
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It's applied research, and since it is almost always driven by doctors, it  
is rarely scientific research. Most "medical" breakthroughs come from non-m
edical biological research, trying to work out what's going on, rather than
 an explicit search for a cure or a treatment.

Someone recently published a meta-study showing that about two thirds of pu
blished papers on cures and treatments couldn't be replicated. Medical rese
archers often aren't good at science.
  
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The trick is to be aware that the path you have planned is through unexplor
ed territory, so you should be prepared to change it as you get to know mor
e about the territory you are exploring. Managers who confuse the initial r
ough map with the territory can miss opportunities.

The military adage is that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.
  
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earch_Organisation  
  
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Any government-funded organisation comes under pressure from politicians -  
CSIRO is no worse off that the universities and the research councils.

Now that industry has given up on funding places like Bell Labs and EMI Cen
tral Research we are stuck with the politician's silly ideas, which are no  
sillier than the average industrialist's, if different.
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If we could find a better way of picking the people to do basic pure resear
ch, we could perhaps usefully spend more. That might be a useful area of ap
plied research.  
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Tenure is one of the mechanisms that frees people to do basic pure research
 where there's no obvious immediate payoff. Bureaucrats hate it.

As someone said, the point where scientific revolutions start isn't when so
meone says "Eureka", but much earlier, when they say "That's odd ...". It t
akes a lot of "That's odd .. " to generate one "Eureka".

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
Bill Sloman wrote:
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That was probably because you never designed electronics for the
consumer market. It's a very different ballgame.

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Not true. Visit a large pharmaceutical company and take a tour.


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The break-throughs I was involved in almost all came out of engineering
groups. Like the one in the link. It enabled procedures that weren't
possible before. Occasionally one comes out of university research which
I greatly support.

[...]


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Scientific_and_Industrial_Research_Organisation
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Except that industrialists are typically vastly more competent, they get
results.

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Huh? Tenure is all bureaucrats are usually after. Tenure plus fat
pensions, ideally combined with iron-clad job protection where you can't
even get fired for gross incompetence or even misconduct.

There is an old saying: Tenure breeds incompetence.


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Sometimes it starts with "oh-oh" or *PHUT* :-)

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Wednesday, 12 June 2013 00:25:26 UTC+10, Joerg  wrote:
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<snip>

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Most of the non-reproducible publications I mentioned seem to have been pub
lishing the results of clinical trials of new products produced by large ph
armaceutical firms.

Whatever they are doing, it isn't science. It may be dressed up with white  
coats and spiffy-looking spread-sheets full of ostensibly clinical data, bu
t they get the results that suit them rather too often for the whole edific
e to be all that credible.
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You are an engineer - and seem to be a good one. What kind of break-through
s would you expect and engineer to be involved in?  

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University research tends to be driven by a desire to work out what's going
 on - for one thing, if you can dream up a more plausible and comprehensive
 explanation of what's going on in any particular area, you've got somethin
g that is easier to teach to under-graduates, which is what universities ex
ist to do.

The emphasis on university research reflects the fact that good researchers
 are better teachers than their less insightful colleagues. It certainly st
uck out a mile in my undergraduate courses.

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esearch_Organisation  
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Not the ones I worked for. You may argue that they had to have been atypica
lly incompetent to hire me in the first place, but the ones that hired me w
ere actually better than average, and tended to move on when the average id
iots managed to screw things up for all of us, as they did from time to tim
e.
  
<snip>  
  
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All bureaucrats would like that. Some jobs are sufficiently exposed to publ
ic scrutiny that it wouldn't be worth taking them on if there wasn't a lot  
of built-in protection against influential nut-cases trying to force people
 to make the decisions that suited them. University lecturers are continuou
sly exposed to parents who don't want their kids exposed to points of view  
the parent don't like.
  
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If there is, Google can't find it. Tenure can protect incompetence, but it  
usually isn't granted until after the recipients have spent some time provi
ng their competence. If they later lose competence - by becoming incapable  
for some reason or other - you can usually force retirement.

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Example?

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
Bill Sloman wrote:
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The development of medications such as Lipitor were not science? Have
you lived on a boat in the middle of the ocean all this time?


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Many. Medical ones are just an example. I have witnessed technologies
being developed where people on life's "death row" signed up for a new
experimental treatment and then got their life back. Via medical devices
designed by engineers.

How do you think passenger airplanes came about? Or engines? Or cars? Or
trains?


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My experience is quite different. I have witnessed real break-through
research from universities, stuff society can use. A downside is the
dreaded publish-or-perish mandate in academia which leads to excessive
concentration on publishable results.

[...]


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If better than average, why did you main employer go belly-up?

[...]


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Many. Here are a few:

http://listverse.com/2008/02/24/top-10-accidental-discoveries/

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Wednesday, 12 June 2013 03:34:38 UTC+10, Joerg  wrote:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statin_development

It started off with a typical medical confusion between correlation and
causation - high cholesterol levels were found to be correlated with coronary
heart disease in the 1950's.

This lead the researchers to look for ways of lowering blood cholesterol levels,
which eventually pointed them at the HMG-CoA reductase enzyme.

They had to wait until the 1970's when a Japanese biochemist ran across a
natural product with such an effect by accident when he was looking for a new
antibiotic.

There was then systematic research on why it worked, and why it was too toxic to
use in humans, and people started looking for structurally similar compounds
with a better balance of effectiveness versus toxicity.

This seems to have been more of a suck-it-and-see procedure than a systematic
search based on any kind of insight into what caused the toxicity.

Lipitor is fully synthetic, but when it was synthesised we didn't know what we
do now about the fine structure of the surface of the  HMG-CoA reductase enzyme,
so it's synthesis predates entirely rational drug design.

My doctors are now giving me simvastatin, rather than Lipitor, so they aren't
impressed by that particular product of big pharma.

The wikipedia article credits a Chinese university with the plan to use what we
now know about the structure of  HMG-CoA reductase to find a better drug - not a
great advertisement for big pharma.

<snip>

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
Bill Sloman wrote:
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See? That's what I meant with the "oh-oh" effect. Yuo have a totally
unexpected outcome, and often it has undesirable side effects that then
must be worked on.


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That is how a lot of research is conducted. Has to, because we don't
know all the stuff to make everything a mathematical slam dunk. This is
also why a lot of the early aviation pioneers died.


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Yeah, right, almost 30 years after an invention it is easy to say "not
impressed". Fact is, Pfizer has enabled many people to live a longer
life and most of all have a higher quality of life at an advanced age.


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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipitor

Quote "Atorvastatin was first synthesized in 1985 by Bruce Roth of
Parke-Davis Warner-Lambert Company (now Pfizer)".

--  
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Re: Boost Converter Efficiency Improvements
On Wednesday, 12 June 2013 10:11:25 UTC+10, Joerg  wrote:
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That arbitrary compounds sometimes are physiologically active isn't "totall
y unexpected". That's why the guy was browsing through that particular stac
k of natural products in the first place.
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It's not all that scientific - keeping records of what did what is basic to
 science, but you have to publish the results in some sort of structured do
cument to qualify as doing science.
  
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That's what Pfizer claims. People who take statins do live longer, but it's
 more likely mostly due to their doctors keeping an eye on them and schedul
ing them for stents and by-pass operations than to the statins on their own
.

My doctor brother tells me that in 30% of cases, the first clinical sign of
 heart disease is sudden death. Getting people heart-disease-conscious allo
ws earlier intervention, which can help.

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Along with a lot of other compounds that didn't do as well. That wasn't sci
ence, it was prospecting. And granting the dubious reliability of the few p
ublished results of clinical trials - most of those results don't get publi
shed - big pharma doesn't do science.

--  
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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