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Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:20:57 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@DonKlipstein.com (Don

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Something seems screwy with that explanation.
IME (cold) starter is initially closed; power goes through old old style
filaments in FL, in fraction of a second bimetallic strip heats up and
contacts open, FL starts.  Lamp current keeps FL filaments hot, glow
current keeps starter contacts warm and open.  By experiment over 40 =
years
ago as a kid.


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Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
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It cant work as a normally closed (at cold) circuit.  If the starter
was normally closed initially, then it would
keep turning the filaments on as it cooled down and closed again,
killing the current through the tube and turning it off.

If it somehow was kept hot enough to stay open when the tube was
running, this would be a waste of power, and probably
reduce the life of the starter a lot.

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
kreed Inscribed thus:

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I agree ! I've never seen any with normally closed bi-metal contacts...
However I've seen a few that failed with the contacts welded closed !

--
Best Regards:
                          Baron.

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
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<SNIP a bit>

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  If you remember that correctly, then your starter that you observed
was not a usual glow switch starter.

  There is the possibility in a few cases that a glow switch starter
may glow while in parallel with the lamp, since the glow has positive
resistance between a few milliamps and an amp or so.  But I have
observed a lot of glow switch starters and never seen that.  That would
be waste of some of the power that would otherwise go into the lamp.

  I have even connected a few glow switch starters to ~150-300V limited
to about a milliamp - they glow right off the bat.  FS-4 usually needed
more than 150V, but FS-2 and most others did not.  On an ohmmeter, every
one I tried came up open.
--
 - Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@donklipstein.com)

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 16:12:55 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@DonKlipstein.com (Don

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Very well, it seems that i may have misremembered.

?-(

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
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Take the cover off one, and watch it from the side when starting.  You
can actually see the contacts bend and move to each other, in that
purple glow.  you might have to extend it out of the fitting to get a
good look in it.

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter

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If i ever come across an old starter type fixture to play with i may just
do that.

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
....
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...

No.  The starter is normally open.  The starter is connected between
the open ends of the lamp filament (the other ends go to the ballast
an neutral.)  The sequence at start up is:

1) Power applied.

2) Since the discharge in the lamp has not started the current through
it is low and there is no voltage drop across the ballast.

3) The high voltage across the starter causes it to break down and
have a glow discharge.

4) The heat from the glow discharge heats up the starter electrodes
until the bimetallic strips cause the starter to short itout.

5) Current now flows through the ballast through the live end heater
to the starter, through the closed contacts to the other filament and
then to neutral - this causes the lamp filaments to heat up and since
the discharge in the starter is stopped it cools down.

6) After a second or so the starter bimetallic strips cool down and
the contact is broken.

7) The breaking connection causes a high voltage back-emf from the
ballast which ideally will start the discharge in the lamp now the
filaments are hot.

8) Since the lamp is now glowing it passes enough current through the
ballast so that voltage across the lamp is only 80v or so  (depending
on lamp).  This is not enough to break down the gas in the starter so
there is no glow discharge in the starter and it cools down and
remains open circuit.

9) The start sequence is now finished and will remain in this state
while power is applied.

10) If the lamp did not start the voltage across it will be high
enough to restart the glow discharge in the starter and the sequence
repeats.  This can also happen when the lamp is nearing the end of its
life and the voltage across it when operating is enough to trigger the
glow in the starter (the voltage across the lamp tends to increase as
the lamp ages).

kevin


Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
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I don't recall the exact formula but believe that it was a small quantity of
radon gas was added to the Neon/Argon mixture in the discharge tube. Has the
effect of lowering the strike voltage. Glow discharge makes sufficient heat
to close a bimetal switch. Glow is shorted out and extinguishes while lamp's
filaments are warming. When bimetal element cools and opens, fluorescent
lamp strikes on the inductive kick from ballast and capacitor.

Once the fluorescent is running, the voltage across is is too low to strike
the gas in the starter tube again. That is until the fluorescent reaches end
of life when its voltage rises to the point where the starter keeps cycling.

Lead (solder) - Possibly internally attaching leads to capacitor foils.

 http://www.newscenter.philips.com/main/lighting/news/press/2005/green_starter.wpdhttp://home.howstuffworks.com/fluorescent-lamp4.htm

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
http://www.newscenter.philips.com/main/lighting/news/press/2005/green_starter.wpd

http://home.howstuffworks.com/fluorescent-lamp4.htm

"http://www.elcfed.org/documents/Ionizing%20Substances%20in%20Lighting%20Products_2003_Rev_2009_final.pdf "


Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
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http://www.newscenter.philips.com/main/lighting/news/press/2005/green_starter.wpd
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"http://www.elcfed.org/documents/Ionizing%20Substances%20in%20Lighting%20Products_2003_Rev_2009_final.pdf "
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OK, perhaps I was being overly cynical.

Sylvia.

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
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<SNIP from here>

  Radon is not used here.  Its longest-lived isotope has a half-life of
only a little less than 4 days, turning into Polonium-218 - which then
goes through at least 4 different pathways all being combinations of 3
alpha decays and 4 beta decays to become lead-206.  One pathway has one
step with halflife a little over a century and another step of a few days,
at least 1 other has its longest step with halflife of a few days, and
at least 2 others have their longest-halflife steps having halflife of
no more than minutes.

  It appears to me that radioactivity being several times higher while
being manufactured than while serving a customer exposes the factory
workers to several times more radioactivity than necessary.

  What is used:  Usually Krypton-85 or Cesium-137, after that the nickel
isotope mentioned in John Larkin's link.
--
 - Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@donklipstein.com)

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter


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Radon has a half-life of just a few seconds so that can't be the fill
gas. (In accordance with newsgroup protocols, I'm now supposed to call
you names but being the misfit that I am, I don't do that.)

A long time ago a touch of Thorium oxide was added, the purpose being
for the radioactivity to establish a uniform ionization environment
and thus stabilize the strike voltage.  As the Cold War progressed and
the nation had Kr-85 running out its ears, that isotope was
substituted for the Thorium.  Easier to inject a little gas than to
mix the thorium oxide in with the electrode material.

The same protocol goes for neon lamps.  The only minor problem is that
Kr-85 has a 10.7 year half life and so if the equipment at hand is
very old, the starter or neon lamp may not be reliable.

The amount of radioactivity is so low that I can't measure it with my
pancake probe survey meter.  I can see it on my gamma spectrometer but
only with very long counts.

Regarding the lead, it's been ages since I've seen a soldered starter.
Most are now crimped and/or staked to make the connections.

The lead most likely refers to the glass used in the glow tube switch.
If the leads penetrating the glass look like shiny fresh copper then
the leads are dumet wire and the glass is almost surely leaded glass.
Dumet/lead glass is one of the most secure and enduring gas tight
seals there are.

John
http://www.neon-john.com


Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter

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Rn222 has a half-life of 3.8 days, still not enough to help a neon
lamp. I've seen mention of Kr85 and tritium in neon lamps.

Krytrons plated some elements with Nickel 63.  

Tritium glow thingies are cool. This one keeps us from smashing our
heads on the stupid bedpost:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tritium.jpg

John


Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter

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  John,
  What do I need to tell my computer to view your jpg images?
I always get this message when I try to see them,
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“file:///C:/Users/semone/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/
Content.IE5/34ER8OEY/Tritium%5B1%5D.jpg” cannot be displayed because it
contains errors.
              Thanks, Mikek



Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter

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“file:///C:/Users/semone/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/
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I don't know. It's a simple anonymous FTP site. For some reason, some
people can't see it. Maybe try a real FTP client? I use FireFTP to put
stuff up there.

John


Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter

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“file:///C:/Users/semone/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/
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   The link is FTP and it works.  Right click and save it.  If that
doesn't work, you need a FTP client to download it.  I use CoffeeCup
Free FTP, which is free and simple to set up.


http://www.coffeecup.com/free-ftp /

<http://www.google.com/search?q=coffeecup+free+ftp+tutorial&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
will bring up several web pages and videos to show how to set it up and
use it, if you need them.

   Add jjlarkin.lmi.net as a server and name it, then click finish.
Some people use the server name itself, others use something easy to
remember.  Then click on that name and CofffeCup Free FTP will open the
server.  Click the file name to highlight it, then download it.


--
It's easy to think outside the box, when you have a cutting torch.

Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 11:46:27 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"

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“file:///C:/Users/semone/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/
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If you killfiled me, why are you snooping my FTP files?

John


Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter
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“file:///C:/Users/semone/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/
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Right-click on the URL. Select "copy link location". In the address bar
of your browser, paste the URL and then "Go".



Re: Philips eoclick fluorescent starter

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Sylvia lends John her chain saw.

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