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Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:10:20 +0800, "Bruce Varley"

If the batteries are costing \$30K, then wouldn't that be sufficient
incentive to recycle their materials?

- Franc Zabkar
--

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

If they can be and it is economical. AFAIUI we are not talking lead acid
batteries, but some form of new and exotic battery.

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I was curious as to how these "exotic" batteries compare with Li-ion.

The following specs are for a 10.8V 4.8Ah 0.7lb Li-ion laptop battery:
http://www.superwarehouse.com/IBM_6_Cell_Lithium_Laptop_Battery/92P1101/ps/625027

It has an energy density of ...

10.8 x 4.8 / (0.7 * 0.454)
= 163 Wh/kg

The Quant's FAES has an energy density of 170 Wh/kg.

- Franc Zabkar
--

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

Try this one;

http://www.evpower.com.au/-DIY-Small-LiFePO4-Battery-packs-.html

Probably the sort of thing you would want for a EV for around town, down
yto the shops, etc.

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney
put finger to keyboard and composed:

They look impressive.

Lithium Iron Phosphate, safe battery technology.
3.2V nominal, 2.1V minimum, 4.2V maximum, 3.65V fully charged
10Ah capacity
30A continuous discharge, 120A pulse discharge
40.6mm diameter x 138mm long
365g

However, if we use 3.2V as the average discharge voltage, then the
energy density would be ...

3.2V x 10Ah / 0.365kg  =  88 Wh/kg

Even at 3.65V the density is only 100 Wh/kg.

- Franc Zabkar
--

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

64Wh for \$92 ?
The commonist practical battery size considered practical for an EV is in
the 10kWh area. That's about \$15,000.

Remember battery life degrades when they are discharged fully.

Graham

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

All the materials known to be effective electrical couples are already well

You can't grow new elements on trees.

Graham

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

I hate to think of the volume of non-benign waste that would be produced.

Graham

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

An \$80,000 2 seater millionaire's toy. Not viable for normal people.

Graham

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

Thanks, but I don't need a phallic replacement toy.
An electric 2 seater ute is more my need.

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

"Franc Zabkar"

** Top Gear did a tests with that car and found it to be a piece of crap.

When driven like a sports car, the batteries lasted only minutes.

The quoted range is only possible on flat roads at bicycle speeds.

Re-charging needs a 3 phase power supply.

Replacing the cells every few years means the running cost is about \$500 per
week.

Rich prick's silly toy  -  at best.

....    Phil

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

Ses what happens at 04:52.

Graham

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

Mostly marketing of course.

Dave.

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

NLV Solar AG have commissioned Koenigsegg to build a car called the "Quant"
which has a thin-film solar-cell coating
http://www.nlv-solar.com/quant /
http://www.koenigsegg.com/pressreleases.php?view16 %

It's even at the 2009 Geneva Salon motor show
http://www.gizmag.com/koenigsegg-quant-512-bhp-four-seater-solar-all-electric-car/11167/picture/70903 /

IF it can be produced in production quantities at a reasonable cost, and IF NLV
Solar licences the technologies involved
to other major manufacturers, and IF it works as claimed, we could soon see a
major shift in the way vehicles are powered.

dmm

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney
On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:54:32 +1000, dmm

which has a thin-film solar-cell coating

Solar licences the technologies involved

major shift in the way vehicles are powered.

Here are some snippets from the above articles:

======================================================================
The FAES (Flow Accumulator Energy Storage) only weigh around 450 kg
and contain no hazardous material or heavy metals.

The advances in electric power generation and storage ... will enable
the NLV Quant to charge the FAES to full capacity in 20 minutes.

Power:              512 bhp
Torque:             715 nm
0 - 100 km/h:       5.2 seconds
Top speed:          275 km/h
Curb weight:        1780 kg

FAES is an electrochemical energy storage system. The gravimetric
energy density is over 170 Wh/kg, the volumetric energy density at
least 600 Wh/l. A particular feature is the voltage per individual
cell of 4 V; the cells are connected in series. The FAES technology
allows high-voltage charging to full capacity in 15–20 minutes and
gives the vehicle a range of 500 km. The additional power input from
the invisible, thin-film photovoltaic coating that covers the body of
the car further increases the range potential. The FAES has no memory
effect.
======================================================================

Based on the above information, the total energy stored in the FAES is
...

450 kg x 170 Wh/kg  = 76.5 kWh

If you were to recharge this storage system in 20 minutes from dead
flat, then the required power input would be ...

76.5 x 3 = 230 kW

A 230 VAC household supply would need to deliver 1000 amps which is
clearly impossible.

However, the above articles did mention that a high voltage supply
would be required, but no details were given.

100A @ 2.3kV or 10A @ 23kV ???

The mind boggles.

- Franc Zabkar
--

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 06:04:17 +1000, Franc Zabkar

ISTR that automotive lead-acid batteries have capacities of around
40Ah to 80Ah.

This equates to 12 x 80 = 960Wh.

The FAES would then be equivalent in capacity to 80 lead-acid
batteries.

- Franc Zabkar
--

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 06:30:23 +1000, Franc Zabkar

The bottom line is that the world is going to continue to be reliant
on oil for many years to come, simply as there are too many
applications for it that cant be readily replaced.
The aviation industry, the shipping industry and even the trucking
industry, as well as the worlds military forces are reliant on oil and
theres no simple replacement.
The world has enuf coal to make oil from for the next 500 years even
if no more coal reserves are discovered, so making oil from coal
should be a high priority.
Fortunately the US air force have already started.
http://www.afmc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id12%3028544

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

Doesn't that waste quiet a bit of energy?
Might be time to just bring back a coal driven steamer?

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney

which has a thin-film solar-cell coating

Shame that thin film solar is only ~ 7% efficient. Let's assume say 6m2 of solar
panels and a high desert style insolation of
a full 8 hours at 1 kW/m2.

That's 3.36 kWh of electrical output. Maybe good enough for 10 miles.

Pointless.

Graham

Re: Electric Vehicle Seminar - Sydney
On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 02:05:34 +0100, Eeyore

which has a thin-film solar-cell coating

solar panels and a high desert style insolation of

Depends upon the numbers you're using.

NLV Solar are claiming average efficiency of 38% and over 50% at peak for a
pyrite based thin film solar-cell coating,
which can even be applied over clear surfaces. Mind you, these are research
based figures, which will almost certainly
be reduced in production. The Quant is about 4.9m long, and 2m wide (big car)
which is about 9.8m2. The actual solar
collection area will be a great deal larger because the sides of the vehicle
have not been included in these figures.

At 1kWh/m2, for 8hrs, that's between about 30kW and 40kW of electrical output.
Reducing the efficiency to say 30%
would result in 23.5kW, not an insignificant number.

dmm