OT -- switching heating elements

That is common. The resistance element is encapsulated in a protective sheath. You cannot remove the heating element without removing the back of the appliance. I would wager the appliance was shipped with a warning label indicating it should be removed only by qualified servicers.

Also, recall if either a mechanical or solid state double pole relay were used, one side could fail (contacts welded or SCR shorted) and you would never know the difference.

There are titles for those who work on appliances without first ensuring it is disconnected. "The Dear Departed" is one. "Candidate for a Darwin Award" is another. I prefer 'Fool".

PlainBill

to

money?

You don't have to take off the back of the oven. You can remove the element in situ. Just undo two 1/4" hex-head screws, pull out the base of the element a bit, and pull off the friction-fit connectors.

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hat

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Well at least one side of the line is disconnected. Thank God for small favors. So when you reach inside the oven and pull the hot terminal off the element while you're leaning on the open door with your chest, you only pass 120 through you heart....... Lenny

If both sides were connected, the element would be on! Wouldn't it?

Well, I was clothed. And the door was off.

Triac controlled heaters would only switch one side. The disconnect is responsible for switching both.

I've only seen one piece of industrial equipment that had a breaker in the neutral. Basically 3 huge HIGH POWER like 15 kW*3 picture tube like power supplies BUT VERY HIGH POWER. 15 kV at 3 amps.

The system required 70 Amp 3 phase 208 VAC to operate. Blink and your dead. Keys are required to get passed the access doors on the equipment.

For those who enjoy calling me an idiot... I used to service klystrons with

20kV anode supplies. One was vehwy, vehwy kehful around these. You not only made sure the power was off, but you used a conductive pole to short the supply.

It's true that I had overlooked the strange :P approach to supplying domestic power in North America.

One possibility that the OP needs to address is that the switch is simply broken, or has one pole bridged by a wire.

But either way, I hold with the consensus here - you don't start taking appliances apart while any part of them is powered, which includes their switches. (But pleads guilty to removing and installing boards on PCs while they're on standby!).

Sylvia.

But you wouldn't be replacing the element if it was on, right?

Correct. But you said "Well, at least one side of the line is disconnected".

Someone is saving a buck. There must be money involved somehow. It's the least common denominator. It always is. Lenny

As someone said... "Don't assume conspiracies when simple stupidity is enough to explain something."

It's a series circuit, it only take ONE switch to open it. There is absolutely NO reason to use a dual pole switch.

I'm tired of hearing "It's the evil corporations" being at fault for people that can't or won't pay attention when doing their own repairs and try to shift the blame from their own carelessness.

Jeff

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"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

I'm sorry, but you're wrong -- probably because you aren't familiar with American wiring.

The standard line voltage in North America is 120V (or thereabouts). Most houses are wired to two "phases" (or whatever the correct term is). When higher voltage is needed -- for a dryer, range, or water heater -- the device is connected across these phases, producing a net voltage of around

210V.

Now, if you connect /either/ of these phases to the neutral, current will flow. This is what happened when I moved the element -- it banged into the neutral (the oven wall itself, presumably), and tripped the breaker.

As someone else pointed out, my range and other GE ranges have one side of the baking and broiling elements permanently connected to one of the phases, making them /live/ as long as the breaker is connected. There is no reason for this, other than saving a dollar or two manufacturing costs.

I spoke with a customer-service rep at GE this morning, who agreed that switching only one side of the line was potentially (pun intended?) dangerous. Think of an oven in a flooded basement.

I was, but people kept responding.

And in short (pun intended) you were using it wrong. Under normal operation there is absolutely no reason what so ever for one or the other side to go to neutral.

The cabinet is supposed to be grounded.

This isn't like the classic "All the wiring is floating" toaster in the bath tub trick.

And if you're foolish enough to try using an electrical oven (or any other electrical appliance) in a flooded basement, you deserve anything that happens to you.

Jeff

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"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

By the way, on page 3 of the users manual for the GE JBP64 it makes a couple of interesting statements.

1. Make sure you appliance is properly installed and GROUNDED.
2. Before performing any service, disconnect the range power supply at the household distribution panel by removing the fuse or switching off the circuit breaker.

But what I find really interesting...

"Do not attempt to repair or replace any part of your range unless is specifically recommended in the manual. All other servicing should be referred to a qualified technician."

The user manual goes on to tell you how to clean it, and how to change the light bulb in the oven. NOWHERE does it tell you to replace the burner elements.

So which part of the manual did you think did not apply to you?

Well, William, wanna give it another go at how you're the victim here of a corporation's greed?

Remember, it ONLY takes ONE switch to OPEN a series circuit. That is ALL that is required to control whether or not the element gets hot or cools off.

Oh and by the way, since you brought it up, the bit about both of the 240 volt sources being "hot with respect to neutral". The heating elements are connected ACROSS the 240 VAC source, NOT split with each half going from the two sources to neutral. (That would require a double contact to turn each PAIR of heating elements on and off.)

"Removing power" on the other hand is accomplished, per the manual, by turning off the source. (And yes, that turns off BOTH sides of the 240 VAC supply.)

Jeff

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"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

I'm not sure about that. I think there is a similarity. "Mythbusters" showed that someone /can/ be electrocuted when a heater or toaster is tossed into a bathtub.

Of course! But what would happen if someone waded into the flooded basement to shut off the breakers (which is what I was thinking of)? If the water were high enough to enter the oven cavity, the water would be "hot".

I agree that no one should enter a flooded room without wearing waterproof rubber boots, but... Many possible accidents -- however unlikely -- are /predictable/. Why not avoid them in the first place, especially when it adds next to nothing to the cost of the appliance?

Many years ago, my father was using a metal-bodied electric drill in the basement. He was wearing leather-soled shoes and standing on concrete, which (as it is in many basements) was faintly damp. The drill's motor shorted out to the metal body, and he was nearly electrocuted. This was before double-insulated tools, and outside of not standing on a thick rubber mat, * he was doing nothing wrong. At least, not by the standards of the day.

In the US, new construction requires GFI outlets near sinks or other water supplies.

• Black rubber objects often contain carbon, which is more conductive than you might think. I discovered this more than 30 years ago when trying to use rubber washers to insulate rack-mount equipment.

I am an qualified technician -- despite what you might think.

I'm not anybody's victim.

You were not paying attention! Any heating device that uses both "phases" requres TWO switches to open it.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. First, there is no "240V" source in my condo. There are multiple 120V sources from which you can get higher voltages by spanning them. (I assume each voltage is referenced to some "neutral" point.) In my preceding apartment, I took advantage of this to build a break-out box -- all to code, I have several electrician friends who advised me -- to provide individual lines for my class A power amps.

As someone else kindly pointed out, this oven has one side of its elements hard-wired to AC. Bad, bad, bad, bad idea.

Oh. I thought all that was needed was to disconnect one side.

From my perspective, the issue is this... There are certain design rules you follow, simply because they're common sense. That's it.

My toaster oven doesn't shut off when you open the door, either because B&D was cheap, or the designer didn't think anything bad would ever happen. Older models did, including ones with sealed heating elements.