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Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 15:46:48 -0800, John-Del wrote:

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I'm worried about cheap Chinese crap getting into the supply chain and  
that's why I'd rather leave things be. I might end up replacing a  
perfectly serviceable 40 year old cap made by a prime manufacturer with  
something nasty from China that's going to go *phut* long before the  
original one would have.



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Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Saturday, November 16, 2019 at 7:57:21 PM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
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It's a good plan to avoid knock-off parts of any type.  Many of old timers  
have seen counterfeit parts going back 40 years or more.

You just need to be careful about where you source your parts.  Here in the
 states, I use DigiKey mostly.  I can buy cheaper caps but I prefer to buy  
from a trusted supplier.  Plus, companies like DigiKey and Mouser have a hu
ge selection of caps.  So one can select not only value, voltage rating, an
d lead configuration, but also have the option of selecting manufacturer, E
SR, and lifetime hours ratings.

I generally only buy Panasonic capacitors because I've grown to trust them.
  In industrial controls where they are all on the time in a wide variety o
f temperature extremes, I don't want a cap with a 1000 or 2000 hour rating.

I also know that with DigiKey and Mouser, I'll get a genuine Panasonic or N
ichicon capacitor if I order one.  They cost more than I can get them elsew
here, but I'd rather pay more to know I'm not getting a knock-off.  

I also know that a new Panasonic cap (like the EEU-TA series) *will* last l
onger than the original ten year old capacitor with many thousands of hours
 on it.  Even a top quality capacitor is still on borrowed time after 40 ye
ars.



Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 07:52:26 -0800, John-Del wrote:

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Where did those fakes come from 40 years ago?? I'm guessing certainly not  
from China. China joined the game *much* later AFAIK.

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It's kind of baffling when one first sees the range of choice available  
from those two suppliers, though. I find it takes me *so* much longer to  
find the part I want than when I was with Farnell/CPC which had a much  
more limited range. Sometimes you can have too much choice and it becomes  
a PITA to sort through it all, even with all those filters. Perhaps I'll  
feel differently once I eventually get used to it.

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Amen to that. Same here!



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Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 12:34:45 PM UTC-5, Cursitor Doom wrote:
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Japan mostly, but that is supposition on my part.  I believe some of those  
fakes were simply relabeled parts and not necessarily purposely built as co
unterfeits.  Back in the CRT TV days, we'd buy horizontal/line output trans
istors a hundred at a shot (like the Toshiba 2SC1172B or Sanyo 1308K).  The
n we started getting counterfeits that would last minutes to days, then blo
w.  We used to buy Sony SG613s in bulk and never had a problem. Suddenly th
e next shipment would blow up on plug in.  

We also saw TONS of Motorola and Toshiba audio outputs for stereo equipment
 that were relabeled.  Vertical ICs, SMPS regulators etc..  There was virtu
ally no category untouched.  I even remember the counterfeit Sony "jungle"  
ICs that would work for a few days, weeks, or months, then cause shutdowns  
or other odd symptoms.  The Sony jungle ICs were complicated devices and th
ese were either line rejects or purposely built to counterfeit.  I don't re
ally know nor does it really matter at my end.  All I know is that they cau
sed costly callbacks.

My guess is that a lot of the early counterfeits were just the lower power/
current/voltage versions of the series that were cleaned and reprinted.

Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On 2019/11/17 10:10 a.m., John-Del wrote:
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Japan was a 'problem' back in the 50s and 60s - a friend of mine who  
lived in Japan in the 60s told me how they literally copied slot  
machines - they would buy one US slot, take it apart, and build exact  
replicas...

But, then again, the US was a problem back in the 1700 and 1800s!

Copyright laws did not exist in the US way back when and lots of  
publications that were protected in Europe were freely reprinted on the  
other side of the pond..

https://www.varsitytutors.com/earlyamerica/firsts/first-u-s-copyright-law

Currency:

https://www.history.org/Foundation/journal/Summer07/counterfeit.cfm

Roman times:

https://coinweek.com/ancient-coins/bad-money-ancient-counterfeiters-and-their-fake-coins/

Counterfeit stuff has always been around, that is why "bricks & mortar"  
places like Digikey, Mouser, Element 14, are trusted - unlike parts you  
buy off eBay or Amazon. Lots of Russian renumbered parts there...

John :-#)#

Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:10:00 -0800, John-Del wrote:

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I had no idea it was so universal. I mean, until recently I thought the  
problem was confined pretty much solely to voltage regulators, but  
clearly it goes way beyond that. I find it all (the 'infection' of the  
supply chain) deeply concerning. :(



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Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
Cursitor Doom wrote:

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** The second time ( a few years later) I found myself with fake MJ15003/4 I made an effort to track down the source.  

My supplier assured me it was "Motorola Australia" in Sydney - so I rang them and explained the situation. The sales guy checked the company database and found NO sales of those types had been made to the supplier in several years.

Further investigation tracked the importing to a dealer in Melbourne who had offered them to likely customers all over the place. The stock same from a fake warehouse in Hong Kong.  

The official line from Motorola here was that one should ONLY deal with authorised suppliers of the brand who offered traceability.

One such dealer told me the problem was rife, claiming hardly a day went by when nobody rang offering to sell them fake semis. The most common back then were memory chips, all nicely packed in bulk containers and all relabelled as to the rated speed.  



.....  Phil  






Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
Cursitor Doom wrote:

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** Back in 1980, on open sale in Australia were counterfeit Motorola power  
transistors. Thousands of them, either included in amplifier kits or across
 the counter.
  
The devices were branded "TIC" for " Transistor Instrument Company" operati
ng from, Florida. They did not in fact manufacture anything but had a catal
ogue with hundreds of types.  

What TIC did was buy up surplus TO3 stock and remove the original labelling
 - then re-ink the parts according to your order. So a 10 cent item became  
worth several dollars each. Just about the only similarity was the TO3 pak.
  
  
The ones I saw and tried to use were Motorola numbers MJ1003 & MJ15004. The
 exact same scam was done by fake wholesalers in places like Hong Kong.  

Another fake wholesaler in the same state was called "Aero" and dealt mostl
y in relabelled and used vacuum tubes - again with a large catalogue.  

On offer were "new" transmitting tubes from them for hundreds of dollars a  
piece that had already seen thousands of hours of use. Or tubes from famous
 US maker Sylvania that were re-labelled stock from places like East German
y or Yugoslavia - for double the going price.

When surplus stocks ran out, shiny new fakes were created in India or China
 that only resembled the real things in appearance.  

Manufacturers well knew to keep away, so sales normally only went to variou
s retail operations and for spare parts.

  

.....  Phil

Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On 11/17/19 9:52 AM, John-Del wrote:
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Apparently some people still haven't learned, "Pay shit,
get shit."


--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
Fox's Mercantile wrote:

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** Those who have not learned are dealers in components.  

Counterfeiters know their best market and approach firms acting as wholesalers for many brands with "bulk surplus stock" of the same brand at an appealing price. The items then get sold as regular stock the normal rate.

Sometimes, fake items are put into stock by rogue staffers who take away the genuine stuff and sell it off elsewhere. Happened to Farnell a few years back with On Semi power transistors.  

Best way to hide a fake semi is to make them look good and sell at standard going prices.  


....   Phil  







Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 9:01:31 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:

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rd going prices.  
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They do with with DLP lamps.  OEM bulbs over here generally cost $80 U.S. g
ive or take.  People started buying ebay and Amazon lamps for a third of th
e cost of OEM and finding out they were either crapping out immediately or  
within a few months.  They generally are not as bright as well. People star
ted avoiding the cheap lamps.

A few sellers have been selling counterfeit Philips bulbs at prices just be
low what Philips lamps sell for - seems like a great deal on Philips brand  
bulbs but it's the same old crappy lamp at a lot more money.


Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
John-Del wrote:


---------------
 Phil Allison wrote:
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 give or take.  People started buying ebay and Amazon lamps for a third of  
the cost of OEM and finding out they were either crapping out immediately o
r within a few months.  They generally are not as bright as well. People st
arted avoiding the cheap lamps.
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below what Philips lamps sell for - seems like a great deal on Philips bran
d bulbs but it's the same old crappy lamp at a lot more money.


** Reminds me of the old trick used by many dealers in second hand furnitur
e.

If they have an largish item that has been taking up space for a while with
 no sale - they put it out the front with a sign:

" Today's Special "  

With double the previous asking price.  


...  Phil  

Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...
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People are funny about things.

I know a man that sells cantalopes and other items at a farmers market.

He had them for $ .25 each and not selling.  He took that sign and  
marked through it and made it 3 for $ 1. Sold most of them at the higher  
price.  People did not do the simple math and see that they were paying  
about 8 cents more for each one.


Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On 2019/11/18 7:08 a.m., Ralph Mowery wrote:
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Here in Canada, on our national radio station CBC, we get a fellow named  
Terry O'Reilley on the air with a show called "Under the Influence" -  
which is all about advertising. Where this story is leading is he had a  
great show on pricing where he talked about the above subject and  
people's perception of prices and what influences them.

The episode is: S3E02 (Archive) - The Psychology of Price

Listen to it here:

http://cbc.mc.tritondigital.com/CBC_UNDERTHEINFLUENCE_P/media/undertheinfluence_20140110_46407.mp3

Or go to the main page at and track down S3E02:

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcasts/arts-culture/under-the-influence/

I've been listening to him for years, lots of great info on how  
advertising (both good and bad) influences us.

John :-#)#

Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Saturday, 16 November 2019 23:46:52 UTC, John-Del  wrote:
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I'm interested to hear how you remove caps from paper based boards with zero board damage rate. Early paper PCBs are somewhat notorious for tracks coming off when heated.


NT

Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 3:14:44 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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A very hot iron wetted with fresh eutectic solder, together with expeditious use of a solder-sucker will pull the solder and loosen the lead without damage. It is the sustained heat that causes the traces to lift.  

Horses for courses.  

Peter Wieck
Melroes Park, PA  


Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On 11/21/19 2:14 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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If you lack the skills to do this, you're a hack.
It's that simple.
I've been doing this for 50 years now.
I don't lift traces, or break off terminals unsoldering
things.


--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Thursday, 21 November 2019 21:53:26 UTC, Fox's Mercantile  wrote:
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lol. You can't help yourself can you. I didn't even mention what I do or can do.

Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 6:29:36 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Sure you did.  You asked *me* "...how you (meaning me) remove caps from paper based boards with zero board damage rate."  

This indicates you can't.

Re: Kind of a generic electrolytic cap question
On Friday, 22 November 2019 12:07:15 UTC, John-Del  wrote:
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yawn

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