True for the defective Sony laptop batteries. Probably not true for cheap replacement cell phone batteries. It won't take much for you find numerous exploding cell phone horror stories with Google. Although some of the early exploding batteries were OEM batteries, the greatest majority were apparently cheap aftermarket replacements.
Incidentally, it may not be just the laptop batteries that are responsible for starting fires:
There's a big difference between your anti-competative chips in ink jet cartridges, which have no safety issues, and a similar chip in a potentially exploding cell phone or laptop battery, where safety and liability are currently a serious and real concern.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
I wonder if someone somewhere somehow couldn't recommend a safety "law"... requiring a (sacrificial) thermal fuse in each battery pack that would open up at much much less temperature than exploding/fire requires. And at the same time require an internal fuse that would open at a current just above the recommended charging current and/or device draw current, whichever is highest. With this we'd cover shorted output of the pack, and a defective charger.
Just for whatever it may be worth, I'm heavily into photography. Have cameras that use AA's, and I had lots of NiMh's. Went out with my camera to take a few pics of flowers. Camera had almost finished batteries in it, so I had 4 freshly charged ones in my hand.
Grandkids came out with their bikes, told me they had permission to ride their bikes (with me) to the ice cream store. So I put the new batteries in my (too tight for a grandfather)jeans pocket, got my bike, and off we went. A block away, my leg got incredibly hot, couldn't put my hand in my pocket, nor could I take my pants off. I still have the scar on my leg. One of the AA's had a flawed "roll over of the transparent insulator" where it covered the negative part of the can near the positive terminal, and I guess the negative end of another shorted it. So, the lesson is carry your spares in a proper container, please.
So all those flaming Dell computers with legit batteries have protected who from whom? Maybe the after market ones would have been safer! Its all about Money, not safety.
I believe it was lexmark that got sued and lost for the printer fiasco.
formatting link
Bob
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
formatting link
The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
With all due respect, that's a rather nonsensical question. Flaming batteries don't protect anyone and you know it. Could you rephrase your question so that it might be answerable?
Pay your money and take your chances. Caveat Emptor. Personally, I've had good luck with aftermarket cell phone and laptop batteries. I've had no fires and have no knowledge of anyone that has had a fire (that wasn't intentional). Whether my next battery will be OEM or aftermarket largely depends on whether I get some improved fire safety assurances, and of course, the price.
Yep, it's all about money. Sony is expected to bear the $250 million cost of the recall. Including loss of revenue from OEM's, I think that's conservative. Now, who do you think is inevitably going to pay for the $250 million loss?
Incidentally, battery safety standards are next on agenda for various standards manufacturers:
Methinks this might help.
Nope. Lexmark sued SCC for reverse engineering their copy protection chip inside their toner cartridges. Lexmark tried to use the DMCA to protect their design on the basis of copyright. The lower courts agreed with Lexmark. The 6th District Court of Appeals did not agree. The 32 page decision is difficult reading, but rather interesting.
More on the case:
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Even if dell had anticompetitive chips installed, the aftermarket batteries would have simply been refurbished dell laptop batteries with new cells installed and any anticompetitive chip from before the refurbishing job.
LiIon battery packs already have a 100C(?) thermal fuse inside. At
175C, LiIon goes into thermal runaway. The problem with the fuse is that it only triggers AFTER the battery pack is already on its way toward meltdown. It's also effective only in the case of an external overload or short. It does nothing for the defective LiIon and LiPo batteries, where the short is inside the battery pack itself. Disconnecting the load (or source) from the terminals does nothing for internal shorts.
Note that there are standards groups working on battery standards:
Parts of that already exist on the charge controller board that's inside most LiIon batteries for laptops. For cell phones, it tends to be inside the cell phone due to space and cost considerations. Most LiIon batteries I've disected have some form of short circuit protection inside. However, it's usually not a fuse, which would render the battery pack inoperative if blown. It's some manner of circuitry on the charge controller board.
How does battery management electronics enhance battery safety?
Well, I'm not much of a photographer, but I have duplicated your accident. The difference was that it was in my jacket pocket and the battery was shorted by my car keys. I was able to remove the jacket before getting any major burns. However, I wasn't smart enough to not put my hand in the jacket pocket to see what was getting so hot. So, I got a small finger tip burn for my curiosity.
Basically, the problem is that the energy density of todays battery technology closely resembles a small bomb. The materials are also rather combustable. Make a mistake, and you can produce anything between a burn and an explosion.
My neighbors 16 year old semi-genius decided to see what would happen if he put a LiPo battery in the trash compactor with the tin cans. His mom stopped him before the inevitable kitchen full of toxic smog, but we were all curious what would happen. Moral: There's always a way to do it wrong (or make it blow up).
NBC. NoBody Cares.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Jeff Liebermann wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
AZ is pointing out that the anti-chip has NO BEARING on whether the battery is safe or not;a battery pack can still short even with the chip,and the presence of the chip does not absolve anyone from liability. Note that the *high quality* Sony product had battery problems.
The chip is only there to eliminate use of cheaper substitutes,NOT for "safety" or liability.
With all due respect! If you are the seller of a defective product, and have not kept sufficient records, then this is an admission of negligence on your part.
In the case of the laptop batteries, this is correct. In the case of the exploding cell phone batteries, this may not be correct. While the original exploding cell phone batteries were stock Nokia (apparently without any short circuit protection), the majority of the later exploding cell phone batteries were because of aftermarket batteries.
I'm not sure I would consider Sony to be a premium product these days. I've seen far too many in-warranty problems with their computers.
Maybe. However, allow me to point out that the necessary technology and chips have been around for quite a while. Some battery packs already have the features in the charge controller chip. If they were as greedy as you suggest, the laptop and cell phone manufacturers could have easily implemented such a scheme long ago. Only after some real field failures, substantial adverse publicity, and litigation, do they begin to implement what will undoubtedly become an unpopular mis-feature and support headache. My guess is that we will begin to see cell phones advertised with a spare battery or charger powered phones. (Many phones cannot run from only the charger and without an internal battery).
I've noticed some interesting logic in one of the exploding cell phone incidents. Instead of blaming the cheap aftermarket battery manufacturer, the victim blamed the manufacturer of the phone claiming the phone was defective in "causing" the battery to explode or otherwise failing to protect the user.
It is also interesting that only the cell phone manufacturers name is mentioned in the various online articles. The exact model is never mentioned. In one (Nextel) case, the phone was fairly new and presumed to have included the stock OEM battery. Reading between the lines, my astute guess(tm) is most of the other incidents were aftermarket replacement batteries.
I would expect to see a line of aftermarket armor holsters for cell phones, that protect the user in case of internal explosion. Maybe a temperature alarm that gives the user a few seconds warning before the phone explodes. Maybe federal safety standards for case ruggedness and survivability. Such opportunities cannot be ignored.
Note that this is not the first laptop battery recall for Dell. See bottom of page at:
Also, I've seen a few cell phones running around without battery covers. A clue is that there are overpriced battery covers for sale on eBay. My XV6700 battery cover is held on with scotch tape as it tends to fall off without much provocation. The exposed battery is not exactly puncture proof. I suspect a good poke with my closed multitool or car keys, while in my pocket, might initiate a meltdown.
Incidentally, thanks for all the good advice on Tektronix repairs over the years. It's been very useful for maintaining my rapidly aging pile of test equipment.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Still more convenient than finding a *fixed* outlet and running a cord to it...and dragging around/tripping over said cord. In fact still much more convenient when any potential outlet is more than a few dozen feet away from the work.
Cordless tools in general have made some jobs possible that never were before. They've also made many jobs easy to do--meaning that they actually *get done*--that were difficult before.
Maybe. I'm sure the safety advocates will try to ban LiIon batteries in trade for some concessions on other items under contention. Quid Pro Quo and all that. Incidentally, lawn darts really were a hazard. I dropped one from about a 60ft tower and punched a neat hole in the top of my toolbox (oops).
It's not just the saw. There's also a hammer/drill/driver combo, light, and Skilsaw clone.
Also a bigger hammer drill:
and impact wrench:
It's a "nano-phosphate lithium ion" cell:
Very fast charge, highest energy density, and allegedly safer than other LiIon mutations. However, they're $170/ea for the DeWalt packs. Ouch.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
Doubt that the battery voltage will ever approach anywhere near 110; and even if it does, it will still be much safer shock-wise being that there's no earth ground threat. :)
When I tried to think of something that had been banned to compare it to, Jarts was the second thing that came to mind. I agree about them.
One of the benefits of the new batteries besides power is reduced weight. Just thought with the problems they've had with the smaller batteries how big a problem would one this size be. Luckily few would carry it on their person.
I love cordless tools and hope they get it worked out. Bought into a
19.2volt system last year. At my age its unlikely I'll ever go to another system especially at those prices.
ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.