HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F

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A friend of mine sent me a rather cryptic message.
Apparently he's got one of these scopes that's decided it
doesn't have to do what its supposed to.

Not reading anything on the inputs
Then it will loose one channel

I guess for a start got a link for the manual?

--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 7:07:00 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
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I had a related scope -- V152F -- and they are not very capable nor fast. Triggering is pretty good for the era. Really probably not worth putting any time or money into.

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On 3/16/18 7:27 PM, Terry Schwartz wrote:
 > I had a related scope -- V152F -- and they are not very
 > capable nor fast. Triggering is pretty good for the era.
 > Really probably not worth putting any time or money into.

It was a request from a friend of mine, Peter, in Australia.
The scope belongs to his friend Phil.

I just got off of Skype with them a few minutes ago.

Apparently Channel 1 died about 4 years ago, and recently
Channel 2 died.

Phil says it's his only scope, so he's sort of dead in the
water right now.


--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
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Channel 2 died. "

Shame, if you would have worked on it then you would have a good channel for comparison. Like in a stereo, using one channel as the reference for the other.  

Couldn't find a print on it.  

What do you mean died ? Did the trace stop moving or did it disappear ? If it disappeared the first thing to look at it the voltage on the deflection plates. If they are equal look to the blanking circuit.  

This is not going to be easy without service information.  

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On 3/16/18 11:57 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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No response to vertical input.

Both traces are present, position works, sweep varies
etc.

It just acts as if you weren't plugged into the input.


--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F

So, how much did this piece of crap cost new?
And how many hours did you waste "fixing" it?  

:-)


On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 7:48:23 AM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
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Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On 3/17/18 9:12 AM, Terry Schwartz wrote:
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Bwahahaha, It's not mine, and so far, I'm into it about 10 minutes.
It's in Australia so I don't have to work on it.


--  
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
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Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
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etc. "

Excellent, now we can go from there. I am not an expert in scopes but I am,
 or at least was an expert troubleshooter.  

Each trace is controlled by the proper position control without abnormal in
teraction between the two. It shows both traces simultaneously in chop or a
lternate. If this is all true that means the output and the channel switchi
ng circuits are working properly.  

One question, relevant but not of prime importance, does you friend always  
use the X10 probe ? ALWAYS use the X10 probe unless you need the gain affor
ded by the X1 probe. this protects the front end of the scope and lowers ci
rcuit loading during testing. Since he cannot fix it himself he might not k
now this. Ask and tell when you get the chance. There is a chance that he a
ctually caused the failure if the one channel in the past and then this cha
nnel now if he does not use the X10 probe(s).  

Regardless we still have a direction. there is a slight difference though,  
if he used the X10 all the time we are looking for a fault that just happen
ed, if he uses the X1 we might be looking at something else. But that does  
not stop us in our tracks.  

You are going to need, at minimum a signal generator or a working scope to  
fix this. If DC voltages would reveal the problem most likely the trace wou
ld be off the screen on affected channel(s). Since it is not we are dealing
 with a dynamic situation, not a static one.  

The attenuator is not likely to develop a fault that would cause no respons
e in any range, before it is suspect as is after. There is nothing active b
efore the attenuator except the AC/DC switch which is easily tested. Then w
e have the possibility of him causing a low value resistor there to open ei
ther by excessive slewing in the input signal or overvoltage slamming again
st clamping diodes. That is eliminated with a signal generator. It is all h
igh impedance so take a generator trough a 2K resistor to the portions of t
he switch and see if you get deflection. If so it is right up front, if not
, it is after the attenuator. A 1 KHz square wave is usually sufficient. Ab
out 10 volts P-P should get a rise out of it. If it is extremely distorted  
though it is still after the attenuator.  

Then you need to find where the signal goes. If it is single sided PCB it i
s not all that hard. Point to point and multilayer PCBs bring in magnitudes
 of increased difficulty. But you can still look for identical components.
  

Being Hitachi and not HP or Tak is actually an advantage here. It is likely
 that the parts are not house markeds and thus can be researched. Like to g
et the pinouts of ICs and the specs on transistors. And being Japanese, or  
at least conforming to their standard rather than JEDEC or whatever, on tra
nsistors the collector is usually in the middle. It is much eeasier to dete
rmone of it is BCE or ECB than the US way. Actuially some European standard
s are like those of the US, but Hitachi is usually going to be BCE or ECB,  
unless it is a really high frequency transistor in which case it could be B
EC or CEB. If it is like a 20 MHz scope or so you can almost count on it be
ing BCE or ECB. Too bad don' t remember my login for Hitachi from my workin
g days. If I find it I will get the print and somehow supply it, though I h
ave no hosting right now. Maybe I could email it to someone who does or per
haps contribute it to BAMA or some other free file place.  

But for now we must do without.  

So now, look for the switching circuit as well, it will have at least 4 dio
des per channel, high speed and it will be directly before the main vertica
l output amp. the generator with the resistor may help. Always use the resi
stor because otherwise you might cause further problems. And be on the look
out for a very small result on the screen because some of the stages might  
be mainly current driven. that means low impedance. just be attentive.  

Get back here with a list of equipment you can use on this in the way of ge
nerators and working scopes and either their specs or model numbers. Don't  
reply via email. Put it out here so we can get input from others or perhaps
 help someone. I avoid doing this by email for those reasons. In fact I che
ck this group more...

I will watch for your response.The 2K value for the resistor is not etched  
in stone, 1K would do but... and 5K would do but...  

Just find out what you can.

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
Oh, you are ot going to be able to do this yourself ? i forgot that part. It looks like your friend is in for some work and education. just forward all this to him and get his responses or whatever.  

How else would it get done ?  

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
Last but not least, those who say it is not worth your time, fukum. (well n
ot really)

They have no idea what your time is worth to you.

They have no idea what your friendship is worth to you.

They have no idea what new knowledge and techniques are worth to you.  

And, analog scopes are "the bomb" in contemporary vernacular. As you teach  
with one you slow down the sweep so they can actually see the trace move as
 you connect a battery, or a speaker output from an amp. I think the study  
of analog scopes should be mandatory in schools at least in the beginning w
hen they learn the basics. If you can rig up simultaneous voltage and curre
nt sensing you can demonstrate reactance, power factor and all kinds of shi
t in real time. You can make them understand for real rather than just able
 to do the math. The young need this knowledge for all that is to come, and
 there is no better way to instill it. I will try to save almost any DC cap
able scope that has triggered sweep and a decent graticule.

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On Sunday, 18 March 2018 03:46:12 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com  wrote:

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 not really)
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h with one you slow down the sweep so they can actually see the trace move  
as you connect a battery, or a speaker output from an amp. I think the stud
y of analog scopes should be mandatory in schools at least in the beginning
 when they learn the basics. If you can rig up simultaneous voltage and cur
rent sensing you can demonstrate reactance, power factor and all kinds of s
hit in real time. You can make them understand for real rather than just ab
le to do the math. The young need this knowledge for all that is to come, a
nd there is no better way to instill it. I will try to save almost any DC c
apable scope that has triggered sweep and a decent graticule.


oo much.
ISTR they had 2 line speeds, nothing more than a pot to select vertical sen
sitivity, no graticule & plenty of distortion on a 2 or 3" round CRT etc. A
s basic as it gets.


NT

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On 19/03/18 02:30, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Aero in Tottenham Court Road. It weighed a ton and I never did get it to  
work.

--  

Jeff

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
says...


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Was that the one with the sloping top part of the front panel, like a  
Mansard roof (or something)? I remember Z&I Aero too, though I don't  
think I would have visited London much in the early 1960s, beyond  
school-leaving interviews...

Mike.

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On 19/03/18 19:37, Mike Coon wrote:
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Not as far as I remember. Picture of 339A here:
<http://www.thevalvepage.com/testeq/cossor/339a/339a.htm

Manual here:
<http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/archive/4869_Cossor_339_Oscillograph_Manual.pdf

Being a Londoner, I could spend quite a bit of time in Tottenham Court  
Road (and Lisle Street). There were quite a few "government surplus"  
shops selling WWII stuff, including some USA Tx and Rx units.  I  
remember buying something with acorn valves; IIRC, a BC-624 VHF Rx. This  
was  for 100 - 156MHz (or should I say Mc/s in old money?!). It was  
bought to scrap; at the time I couldn't even find out what it needed to  
operate, other than it had a socket marked "dynamotor".

Not much surplus around in the UK now, although a year or so ago I got  
an ex-Vulcan Green Satin ground radar doppler unit as a Christmas  
present for a Vulcan enthusiast. I wonder where it had been stored since  
it was scrapped in 1984? No semiconductors, by the way - just submin  
valves. No doubt better at surviving an EMP from a hydrogen bomb, but  
would there be anywhere to land?

--  

Jeff

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 20:46:09 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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I have a TEK 465B. When I was learning to use it I was really jazzed
when I watched the discharge of some capacitance in a CNC control I
was diagnosing. I don't know how well a digital scope would show that
as I have no experience with digital scopes.
Eric

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com says...
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I have a 465B and one of the 200 MHz storage scopes.  One thing the  
storage scope will allow me to do is store a trace on the screen for a  
one shot event.

One thing I can not get the storage scope to do is when I put  signals  
into the x and y axis display for a circle or rotating circle to compair  
very close frequencies.  The storage scope is very poor for that while  
the old analog 465B works very well. Main reason for wanting to do this  
is calibrating a time base at 10 MHz from a  
RF service monitor to a GPS standard.  I know there are several other  
ways around this and have used them.

It may be because it is an inexpensive storage scope, a Hanteck one for  
about $ 300.  Not sure if a more expensive one would do better or not  
for this.


Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
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for this. "

I think it is a limitation of the design. Digital scopes simply are not the same.  

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 9:14:44 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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he same.

That's crap. I can make my digital scope do anything an analog or storage s
cope can do, and much more, better, faster, and save the waveforms indefini
tely. I can make it act exactly like an analog scope if I want, with much h
igher resolution, bandwidth, and I'm not limited to seeing one width of the
 screen. In every way including triggering, the digital scope is more sophi
sticated and capable. I frankly can't imagine a reason to go back and use a
n analog scope.

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
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Oh yeah ? let's see the dot moving across the screen at 1 second per divisi
on and demonstrate it principle to students with a battery. I want to see i
t. A continuous dot moving slowly across the screen. I would bet a case of  
beer that you can't. Even a raster scan scope can't do it as far as I have  
seen.  

Do you have a really special one ? If not, it will blip blip blip refreshin
g the display and will not give you the dot moving slowly across the screen
. If I am wrong, please supply me the make and model and I will reconsider  
and possibly retract.

Re: HITACHI V-353F OSCILLOSCOPE V-353-F
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 2:33:51 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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sion and demonstrate it principle to students with a battery. I want to see
 it. A continuous dot moving slowly across the screen. I would bet a case o
f beer that you can't. Even a raster scan scope can't do it as far as I hav
e seen.  
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ing the display and will not give you the dot moving slowly across the scre
en. If I am wrong, please supply me the make and model and I will reconside
r and possibly retract.

One of my daily use digital scopes at work is an old Tek TDS460a, it'll sca
n across the screen as slow as 20 seconds/division. It's not a crude dot, i
t's a real digitized scan with infinite persistence. I can easily demonstra
te your simple battery voltage test. It also has a 400 MHz bandwidth for do
ing actual useful things.

How is a moving dot superior to a captured scan that one can actually see e
ven after the signal is gone, measure with cursors, perform math functions  
on, overlay onto other measurements, store as a reference for recall later,
 label the axis's, print out, convert to a datastream, export to a file, re
create on a PC,..... ????? This is a very old CRT digital scope, the more m
odern LCD scopes are even more capable.

Analog scopes had their day. That day is over. Test drive any modern digita
l scope and you'll never look back.

You could still drive a Model T cross country, but would you?

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