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I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and want to  
acquire some tools.  I've needed a new scope for some time, but want an att
ached scope using the PC for a display.  They are no cheaper than the full  
scopes and good ones may be more expensive.  The only ones I've found that  
are decent are the Pico Technology scopes.  Rather pricey.  

Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC.  One I've seen used  
is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name.  My only issue wit
h it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver.  I keep wanting to switch to L
inux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me back.  Ah, found it.  Log
icPort by Intronix.  Not a bad device, but no scope.  

This one is interesting.  I'm thinking about the $1100 model, MSO-9201 w/LA
POD meaning it has a 12 bit logic analyzer and not just the scope.  Anyone  
use this?  Link Instruments  

https://www.linkinstruments.com/mso9201.htm

It includes the probes and serial analysis software apparently along with v
arious math operations like spectrum analysis along with data logging.  Aga
in no Linux, but not even Win10!  

$325 will get you a 60 MHz bandwidth little brother with an 8 channel logic
 analyzer.  If I can't find anyone who has these devices I think this one i
s less of a risk and likely the right choice anyway.  Other than the much m
ore limited buffer size it's probably enough for my needs anyway.  

Then little brother has a little brother for $249 with only one input chann
el, but adds a pattern generator (on the logic analyzer port) and TDR.  I t
hink I'd still want the two channels.  A one channel scope is rather limite
d.  

I wonder how good the software is.  I got a Hantek scope once and couldn't  
even get the software to run.  Zero support...  ZERO!  I got a full refund  
because they couldn't track the package and I still have the piece of junk.
  It's just an MCU on a serial port.  

--  

  Rick C.

  - Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: Good Hardware Tools
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Wow, I was gonna say I don't know much about scopes but an online
acquaintenance recommended a particular Hantek scope a while back (I
forget which model).

In general, expect all software coming from hardware companies to be
crap.  Find something with good independent FOSS support.

Re: Good Hardware Tools
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On logic analysers, we have a Saleae:
https://www.saleae.com/

It's not cheap but the software is fairly nice (and runs on Linux).  It's also supported
by Sigrok, which is an open source logic analyser program for Linux, that
supports a wide range of analyser (digital/analogue) hardware.

Sigrok even supports cheap CY7C68013A modules like this one, that you can
use as crude logic analysers:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-EEPROM-NW/153551608305
(that gives you 24MHz unbuffered sampling, for as long as your PC can stream
out the data in realtime)

For scopes, I often prefer to have the immediacy of having a separate
display with knobs to twiddle - having to use a PC app would get in the way, I
think.  Most of the cost is in the analogue and sampling frontend, so the
display doesn't cost very much extra.

Theo

Re: Good Hardware Tools
On 10/30/20 03:17, Rick C wrote:
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Took a different approach here, never satisfied with second rate test
gear, not have the budget for the sort of kit I would want to use and
have respect for. Built a up a lab over the years buying s/hand HP,
Tek etc and fixing up where needed. Also, multi function gear is always
a compromise and often ends up doing nothing very well. If you are a
good engineer, you won't be happy with it :-).

Most of the kit here is a decade old or much more and some of it is
big and klunky, but once fixed up can be relied upon to work
whenever needed. At current prices, could spend 100K on test gear and  
still not have more capability. Ymmv, of course...

Chris

Re: Good Hardware Tools
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:17:16 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
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I needed a new scope a couple years ago and started down this route.
But I really didn't find anything PC-attached and great, so ended up
buying a used Keysight MSO-X 3054T. This saves screen-shots to USB stick,
which is what I most need for engineering documentation, and has decode
for SPI, I2C, CAN, LIN, etc. (decoder is an option, make sure you don't buy
a used scope without this stuff). I'm REALLY happy with this scope/analyzer.
They are available overhauled/used from Keysight.
The decoder is great for debugging drivers, but can't log much stuff
if you need that for debugging. So...

I just received (Friday) an IKAlogic SP209i (PC-attached) logic analyzer.
This can decode just about anything. I haven't had a chance to fire
it up and see how it does on some buses here (RS-485 etc). It has
programmable scripts so you can add your own decoding and logging.
PC software is open source.

Hope that helps!
Best Regards, Dave

Re: Good Hardware Tools
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 8:56:33 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
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uy
er.

Thanks.  Partly I want an attached scope so it is very portable.  I think I
've given up on shoving anything else in my computer bag, but it would be n
ice to have a brief case or second computer bag with all the tools I need f
or debugging boards.  

The IKAlogic is interesting, but a bit pricey for 9 bits of logic analyzer.
  One thing I realize it is it's all about the software.  If the UI is not  
so good you won't be happy.  As someone has said, they like having knobs to
 twiddle.  I seem to recall reading about someone having a knob bank that w
ould work with one of the attached scopes.  Too distant a memory to recall  
any details.  It was a nice job, but the knobs were all generic and uniform
.  Maybe it was a commercial, generic unit, but I think he built it himself
.  Not sure how it was interfaced to the software unless the software was o
pen source.  

--  

  Rick C.

  + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: Good Hardware Tools
On 10/29/2020 23:17, Rick C wrote:
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Win 7 and Win 10 but it does have software for Debian and Ubuntu listed.  

Best wishes,
--Phil


Re: Good Hardware Tools
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:54:13 PM UTC-4, Philip Martel wrote:
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 to acquire some tools.  I've needed a new scope for some time, but want an
 attached scope using the PC for a display.  They are no cheaper than the f
ull scopes and good ones may be more expensive.  The only ones I've found t
hat are decent are the Pico Technology scopes.  Rather pricey.
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sed is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name.  My only issue
 with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver.  I keep wanting to switch  
to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me back.  Ah, found it.  
 LogicPort by Intronix.  Not a bad device, but no scope.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
w/LAPOD meaning it has a 12 bit logic analyzer and not just the scope.  Any
one use this?  Link Instruments
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th various math operations like spectrum analysis along with data logging.  
 Again no Linux, but not even Win10!
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ogic analyzer.  If I can't find anyone who has these devices I think this o
ne is less of a risk and likely the right choice anyway.  Other than the mu
ch more limited buffer size it's probably enough for my needs anyway.
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hannel, but adds a pattern generator (on the logic analyzer port) and TDR.  
 I think I'd still want the two channels.  A one channel scope is rather li
mited.
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n't even get the software to run.  Zero support...  ZERO!  I got a full ref
und because they couldn't track the package and I still have the piece of j
unk.  It's just an MCU on a serial port.
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nder  
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Also iOS and Android.  Interesting.  Only 30 MHz though.  $230 seems a bit  
much for 30 MHz, but it does seem quality.  They sell a nice looking digita
l cable for $35, but give a crappy Dupont, separate pin connectors cable wi
th the unit.  

I'll think about this.  I really wanted something with a bit faster scope.  
 At least the logic analyzer runs at 100 MHz.  

Thanks,  

--  

  Rick C.

  -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: Good Hardware Tools
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I've had good luck in the past buying used HP 20+ year old test equipment on
ebay.  (It was named HP, then Agilent, now Keysight, which is kinda handy
when searching, you get to pick the age of the equipment through the name).
The HP16500C supports sending the display over X windows (so you can control
it from your desk), and I think it supports NFS mounting so you can get
at the trace data.  It supports 5 plug in cards.  The 16534a is the
2GSa/s 500MHz scope card which gives you two probes, and is about $500 or so.
It's excellent.  The 16555A cards are logic analyzer cards with 1 million
states deep at 125MHz (250MHz if you lose half the channels, and 500MHz fixed
sampling clock which is useful to see which signals are transitioning
later/earlier than others on a bus).  HP Logic Analyzers have very good
triggering and selective trace capture ability.  Try to get the
16555A already installed as a group in a chassis since there are special
connectors to "gang" them together which you'll want.  The 16500B chassis
doesn't have the X windows or NFS support, so it's a lot less useful.

I picked HP 16500C since I'd used it before--so think of something you
used and liked that was new 20 years ago, and buy a used version of that.
Everything is 20x-50x cheaper than new, which makes it a great deal.

You're taking some risk on ebay, but it looks like you can get 4x 16555A
in a 16500C chassis for under $500.  I found one for sale near me 10 years ago
and picked it up in person.  (This stuff is heavy--I'd be wary of shipping
damage).  Quality used equipment from 20-25 years ago is better than cheap
crap today.

To be safe, I bought two of everything I wanted--one system was perfect, the
other had some minor annoyances.

It looks like the PicoScope 6000 new is 5GSa/s at 500MHz with 2 channels
for $6916.  The 25 year old HP equipment is almost as good (half the
sampling rate) for 1/10th the price.

Kent

Re: Good Hardware Tools
On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:11:08 PM UTC-5, Kent Dickey wrote:
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Thanks for the suggestions.  I used one of those HP logic analyzers complet
e with a floppy disk drive, MANY years ago.  You picked the top end PicoSco
pe to compare to.  The problem is the HP16500 would barely fit in my car wi
thout breaking an axle while the PicoScope will fit in my computer bag!  

In the winter I might have to turn off the HP during my electricity peak bi
lling time and in the summer I'd have to chill the house in the AM to keep  
the temperatures down in the afternoon.  lol, just kidding of course, but t
hey do use a lot of power which gets turned into heat.  At this moment, the
 laptop is the highest power drain that's running.  I'd like to keep it tha
t way.  Heck, I'm considering replacing my fridge because the web says buyi
ng a new one will save enough electricity to pay for itself in five years o
r less.  It's 30 years old too.  

--  

Rick C.

  -+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: Good Hardware Tools
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The new fridge will fail in 5 years, planned obsolescence.
And the cost to run for your old fridge is a lie to get you to buy a new
one.



Re: Good Hardware Tools
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 2:31:34 PM UTC-5, Brett wrote:
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This fridge actually did exactly that, died just after the warranty ran out
.  The installed a new compressor at cost...  the price of a new refrigerat
or.  lol.  The repaired unit has lasted 30 years so I can't complain too mu
ch.  

Most likely a replacement would simply result in the old unit going in the  
basement as a back up unit.  If it stays plugged in it will mean the electr
icity cost will simply go UP rather than down by getting a new unit.  lol  
  

Durn this GG UI...  Every time I scroll down a bit to read something, as so
on as I start typing it scrolls up to put my typing at the very top of the  
screen.  What is wrong with Google that they would spend time to rewrite th
e GG UI, making it worse in the process when no one was complaining about h
ow it works?  I've noticed any number of changes that simply make the UI le
ss usable with no redeeming quality.  

--  

  Rick C.

  +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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Re: Good Hardware Tools
On 2020-11-17 Rick C wrote in comp.arch.embedded:

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I see you complain a lot about GG so why not switch to a decent newsreader?
(That would get rid of the afwul GG line lengths as well ;-) )

If it is because you would then need news server access, there are free
options. There are also paid services that are really cheap if you only use
text newsgroups. The one I am using costs me Euro 1,70 a year because that is
the minimum year fee they have. If it were only for the amount data, I could
probably do with one tenth of that.

--  
Stef    (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail)

As long as we're going to reinvent the wheel again, we might as well try making
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Re: Good Hardware Tools
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Here is a free Usenet feed for text groups:

news.eternal-september.org

I use NewsTap on an iPad connected to this.



Re: Good Hardware Tools
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:50:45 -0800 (PST), Rick C

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That's the scam: energy efficient appliances often have critical
components that are under specified for the load ... that's *how* they
save electricity.  The original components are overworked and fail
quickly [sometimes even under warranty]. After-market replacements
almost always are better ... but since the replacement is correctly
sized for the load, once "fixed" the appliance no longer qualifies for
its "energy efficient" rating.

George

Re: Good Hardware Tools
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That's an interesting point.  However, regarding fridges and
particularly freezers, there's another avenue to energy efficiency:
apparently the chest type units are way more efficient than the type
with a front door, even if the door stays closed most of the time.  They
do a better job of keeping heat out, so the motor doesn't have to run
nearly as much.  I don't know whether more insulation could do the same
thing for a front loading design.

I tried freezing a ~4 liter pot of water in my supposedly high
efficiency fridge and then unplugging it.  The resulting block of ice
completely melted in just a day or two.  That was disappointing.

Re: Good Hardware Tools
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:06:14 -0800, Paul Rubin

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You are correct about chest freezers in general being more efficient.


More insulation certainly helps, as does being air-tight.  For many
years I have liked Sub-Zero[*] refrigerators and freezers.

Sub-Zero freezers vacuum seal when they are closed: on the bigger
units the door quite strongly resists being opened, and it pulls
strongly for several seconds when closed [you can't just open the door
again if you forgot something, you have to wait until the seal is
stable].

And they maintain -5..+5 degrees Fahrenheit - not exactly "sub zero"
as the name implies, but way below freezing.

The refrigerators don't vacuum seal, but they are heavily insulated
and easily keep stuff near freezing.

[*] https://www.subzero-wolf.com/sub-zero
    https://www.subzero-wolf.com/sub-zero/full-size-refrigeration


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If I freeze water overnight in my 14oz travel mug, it will take over 3
hours in the (comfortable) ~70-F car before I can even take a sip.  My
sister is about an ~8 hour drive: if I keep the mug out of the sun, it
will still be partly frozen when I get there.

YMMV,
George

Re: Good Hardware Tools
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Funny, to me "sub-zero" just means below freezing. I have to really  
try and remember what temperature, Fahrenheit, water freezes at!

Anybody know of any other countries than the USA that habitually use  
Fahrenheit? I'm just curious. The UK used to, and no doubt there are  
many "older" UK people who still use it - but all weather reports etc  
give temp. in centigrade.

Re: Good Hardware Tools
On 17/11/2020 23:28, Jim Jackson wrote:
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It is still used colloquially in the UK for warm weather (like saying
"it's in the nineties" to mean it is hot), and probably by some older
people for oven temperatures.  At least it's a step up from gas marks...

A few tiny countries (typically ex-British colonies in the Caribbean)
still have weather reports in Fahrenheit, as they get them all from the
USA.  And I guess older folks there occasionally use it, like in the UK.

But AFAIK only the USA has Fahrenheit (and other non-metric units) as
standard.


Re: Good Hardware Tools
On 18.11.20 12.11, David Brown wrote:
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The US Congress decided in 1866 to go metric - a little
sluggish implementation.

--  

-TV


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