Any experience with XXS1500 from mycable.de?

To be honest, Linux is an imperfect choice for this sort of thing, but it's got the most vibrant community and the largest feature set of the usual free software suspects. Indeed, it'll work just fine; no need to waver based upon a 2% different in the odd suitability metric or two.

This is actually less of a benefit than you would think; in fact it's a bit of a drawback. A router should have only redundant and monitored moving parts, and ideally no moving parts at all. It should also run as little code as possible.

For simple projects, it's trivial to construct a chrooted Debian/stable build environment, then write a script to copy just the libraries and executables needed into a ramdisk image. Boot that ramdisk with your kernel, and you've got a vastly better result than you'd have running full Debian on a router. Applying a Debian update is as simple as apt-get upgrade followed by a ramdisk rebuild.

The nicest little router hardware I've found for < $250 is the Soekris net4501. It has three ethernets, an AMD SC400 (486/100 core), 64MB RAM, and boots from compact flash, serial download, or network, neatly eliminating any need for disc, keyboard, or video. Variants have PCMCIA port(s) in place of some ethernets; these are intended to be wireless bridges and routers. It comes in a nice little metal case with a wall-wart p/s for under $200. A companion ipsec daughtercard is available. See

There are a good number of other SBC vendors out there. The embedded site linuxdevices.com has a nonexhaustive and slightly outdated list. I'm not aware of any exhaustive or more actively maintained list (but I'd love to hear about one!)

If that doesn't float your boat, get a Mini-ITX board, a small case, an ide flash part, etc. In the end it'll probably cost more, but it has video, ide ports, a keyboard controller, usb, etc. It'll also be much faster.

--
Grant Taylor - gtaylorpicante.com - http://www.picante.com/~gtaylor/
   Linux Printing Website and HOWTO:  http://www.linuxprinting.org/

SNIP

I am also interested in any information about small, low cost single board computers. We are looking at putting together a consumer level product running an embedded J2ME app on an embedded linux platform. We need to keep this piece down to the $80 range in 1000+ unit quantities.

The linuxdevices.com list is a pointer but not a lot of help. Any leads for a maintained list, manufacture source list or even companies would be appreciated. Any leads on people with an interest in a start up like this wouldn't hurt either. Lower Hudson Valley of NY.

Joe Hoffman

joeh AT warwick Dot net

Go ask in comp.arch.embedded. I've never seen a "I need a board with foo and bar" question go without several specific products being suggested.

You will need better hardware requirements to produce a correct answer, though. "Java thing on Linux" could mean anything, hardware wise. What speed and/or arch of cpu do you want? What peripherals? What physical size? Etc.

*Please* summarize here if you get any "list" pointers! Finding a board is atrouciously difficult...

A number of mainstream embedded websites offer searchable company lists as well as "submit your name to get sales calls" interfaces. Probably worth a shot for you.

You might also find CPU parts and ask the manufacturer for pointers to sbc housen. Conversely, you might ask a Linux embedded house like Montavista and the like what sbcs they have kits for.

Finally, I've had fair luck in the past googling by form-factor and/or interconnect. IE, "PISA", "CPCI", "EBX", "Eurocard", "PC104", etc. Froogle, alas, isn't smart enough for this, but plain google works OK.

--
Grant Taylor - gtaylorpicante.com - http://www.picante.com/~gtaylor/
   Linux Printing Website and HOWTO:  http://www.linuxprinting.org/

I will. Thanks for the pointer.

Right this minute, I am trying to get base line costs and all of the requirements are not ied down. Don't care too much about size/form factor or arch, peripherals are very limited, modem, ethernet, small lcd screen, no keyboard, memory may be the driving issue though.

Definately!

I have touched base with a few but since we are still a few weeks away from incorporation they don't have much interest.

I suspect the same response as above.

I've logged hours doing just that and have found a fair amount of information. Personally I am surprised that with all of the folks out there creating new SBC almost daily, the general community hasn't found a way to keep a decent list / database together. How do these companies expect to sell their stuff, just wait for somebody to stumble over them. And most that do show up, hide their pricing. Why would I want to waste their time and mine if I am in the market for a low end $100 package and they only make $400 stuff.

Anyway, thatnks for the reply. I'll get back here with anything useful that I come up with.

Joe Hoffman

Oh, yes, if you need too much RAM it becomes hard to find boards with it nailed on, which on top of the RAM cost itself will be a big headache for your low cost requirements.

Are you sure you want to do Linux+Java? It's a pretty heavyweight software environment; if your application can be constructed to run on a smaller OS you can take a big slice out of your cogs by using a much smaller computer.

Maybe I should start such a site. I did a cellphone handsets database once, it's probably about the same market variety and volatility. Hmm.

Most of the prices are in the same multi-hundred ranges for comparable boards. People building stuff for non-consumer customers know and expect this, it's not really secret as such.

People building stuff for consumers have to do extra work up front to hold the product cost down. For the moment this would be you ;)

--
Grant Taylor - gtaylorpicante.com - http://www.picante.com/~gtaylor/
   Linux Printing Website and HOWTO:  http://www.linuxprinting.org/

J2ME is pretty light weight and if I understand correctly, linux can be stripped down for the embedded runtime stuff. The product plan / family we have in mind will grow both up and down. The core app should be transportable to down to higher end cell phones where linux is making inroads and expand upwards to make use of video and ethernet. Wireless across all models obviously.

I also have a slightly religious issue with linux vs what ever micro environment MS would have. I am not disputing your statement, once I have the right engineer on staff we will work all of that through. Its a series of trade offs. We may have to eat some extra cost for the baseline model to save re-engineering expense later. Besides, the costs of hese boards is dropping. The Gumstix product for example.

I had the same thought as I was writing the last note. You would be doing a lot of people a favor. It would help drive the market and you probably could find ways to monetize it. I can't do it, wrong mind set and insufficient knowledge.

But I know the product is out there. Look at Detroit with the telematics and entertainment products. They work on tight margins.

Regards

Joe Hoffman

Hmm, religion is a bad thing...

I was thinking VxWorks, eCos, QNX, etc; classical embedded operating systems. Every one of them is smaller than Linux, usually by an order of magnitude.

Yes, I saw the gumstix, cute. The things are seriously lacking for peripherals, though; IIRC there isn't even a bus exposed in a stacking or edge connector, just the two serial interfaces. Previous SBC-on-DIMM type products always had lots of signals hanging out on the dimm edge connector - you basically ended up building a "passive backplane" from a dimm socket or two. Alas those were not especially cheap last time I looked. Perhaps they are now, did you look up the successor products to the "ucdimm"?

--
Grant Taylor - gtaylorpicante.com - http://www.picante.com/~gtaylor/
   Linux Printing Website and HOWTO:  http://www.linuxprinting.org/

I agree that the Gumstick is weak. I took a look at ucdimm and the first hit was Arcturus Networks. They have a fully loaded SBC with DragonBall core. Price $85 to $95 depending on versions at qty 501+.

Nice call. Thanks.

Joe

You might want to have a look at the CerfCube 405EP at

I came across it a while back and thought it was a very nice offering.

Regards

-Bill Knight R O SoftWare