Xmas Lights - Seriously Unimpressed

Typical NeoCon-think. Job loss and trade imbalance are Leftist issues.

Dark

problem

problems are

and

And to

the

??? We're talking about something else.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm old enough to remember the first time ('70s) the Japanese (Matsushita) dumped TVs on the american market and put most of the domestic TV makers out of business. And don't give me that BS about "live with it". The Japanese gov't found them guilty of dumping, and they were fined $150 million. Yeah, $150 million. That's not something any competing ompany should have to "live with".

This time, the Japanes are getting some of their own medicine. The Chinese are dumping TVs onto the Japanese market and putting a lot of pressure on the Japanese domestic TV makers to cut their prices to be competitive.

But the U.S. Int'l Trade Commission has found the Chinese TV makers guilty of dumping, and now imposes a tariff on each TV set. That's again not a case of doing what the consumers want, dumping is a case of doing what the competitors can't compete against. You don't seem to see the forest for the trees.

"Now, with Bill Moyers" (and David Bronwhateverhisnameis).

That's David (man he looks like Michaelangelo's David) Brancaccio. He used to do Marketplace for NPR. Looks like old Bill's gonna retire in Dec, and David is going to carry the flame for the left.

--
Regards,
   Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
     - Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
        on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

What an excelent place to start a Mom & Pop business. But I guess Neo-Libs who have become dependent on the nanny state don't think in those terms. Seriously unimpressed sums up my view of this useless thread. Bye.

I guess we all know where he's coming from. He must own stock in Wal-mart. ;-)

--------------------------- The Truth is what Usenet is for! YOU'RE the taint, you shit-minded neocon!

-Steve

--
-Steve Walz  rstevew@armory.com   ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!!  With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

------------- No, that's what thieves try to convince us of to stay out of jail! Tolerance for your Evil is called Vice!

-Steve

--
-Steve Walz  rstevew@armory.com   ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!!  With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

------------------------- Because velcro when it stops holding sounds like loud crinkling saran wrap akin to the third day of rain at Woodstock when you don't stand perfectly absolutely still. Most new products they tell us we "need" are nothing more than mass experiments at theft from us that SHOULD have been done on only a few hundred pairs in a nice People's State testing lab and their defects discovered BEFORE we make 10,000,000 of them, so we can punish the moron who "invented" this crap and so the materials are not wasted!!

-Steve

--
-Steve Walz  rstevew@armory.com   ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!!  With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

Well, consider this: what allowed them to "dump" the TVs on the market? Was it because the american TVs were OVERPRICED? Hmm, perhaps so...

That's simply not fair. The Japanese companies offered TVs at FAIR prices, not the over-bloated prices of other manufacturers. And what reward are they given? A fine. Doesn't sound very fair to me, and is definitely against everything capitalism is supposed to mean.

My guess is the ONLY reason the Japanese government did this was because of pressure from the US, can't make the US angry, so let's punish ourselves...

And why shouldn't they? If the Chinese can make TVs cheaper why shouldn't they? Why as a consumer should I pay MORE for the EXACT SAME THING??

If they can't compete they shouldn't be in business. They have been over charging consumers for years, and consumers are supposed to defend them??

I simply see things like this: if a company can't compete they shouldn't use my tax money to artificially keep them going.

And on the other hand, if you want to see television that bends over for gays(I just couldn't resist), tree-huggers, gun-control nuts, democratic presidents(and presidential candidates) and senators, and the rest of the wacko left-wing causes, simply watch CBS, ABC, NBC, or the rest of the main-stream media.

It's funny how the majority of the people voting anti-business have no problems patronizing our malls, shopping at Wal-Mart, etc. Wal-Mart exists because consumers want low prices, and Wal-Mart gives it to them. The same people who are on the news talking about "it's such a shame to see Wal-Mart destroy the local businesses" finish up their rants with, "oh, btw, when is it going to open?". If everyone boycotted Wal-Mart, there would be no Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart adds considerable tax revenue to any town --- money that the Mom and Pop shops weren't generating. In addition, Wal-Mart's also puts money back in the communities, in terms of donations to charities, improving the local infrastructure, etc. When local people complain about Wal-Mart, the number one reason I see stated is that it adds too much traffic to an area. Traffic = tax revenue generation. Doesn't sound bad to me..... Tax revenue generation = money to widen roads, improve school districts, etc.

I still have yet to figure out why the baby boomer generation will pay three times more for the same exact product by shopping at a Mom and Pop shop. This is certainly anecdotal and you can place whatever worth you want on it.

There is a Mom and Pop hardware store down the street from my parent's house. It's a fairly high-volume store, just looking at the parking lot, and the people in the store, they certainly don't do bad. This place, despite getting tons of business, repeatedly marks up the products OVER the MSRP. Wal-Marts, Targets, Home Depot, Lowe's, etc are consistently under the MSRP. Why does the Mom and Pop shop think that overcharging and gouging consumers is OK? This locally-owned hardware store is affiliated with some national chain, and I'm sure gets reasonable margins off the list price. There certainly seems to be no problem with volume at this store although they can't compete with the volume of Home Depot etc, but their business is very steady.

Paying $8.00 for a $3.00 part simply isn't acceptable in my eyes. If Wal-mart offers the SAME PRODUCT(same brand, same quality, etc) at a lower price, I have to shop there. And most of America agrees with me, most people shop there too. You can't argue that the community suffers as a result, because the pure tax revenues and jobs created well exceed what had been in place before.

You can also argue the differences in terms of service too, but I've been on my soapbox long enough.

I believe in the power of the people. If you don't want Wal-Marts in your area, good. Mobilize your troops, get the community involved, and chase them out. Boycott them. Elect people to your local government who share your interests.

Keith Pittsburgh

corporations,

for

democratic

the

You need to get over your 'attitude' and learn to view things more objectively.

exists

same

Wal-Mart

when is

money that

I think that point is debatable. If a store sells something for less, the taxes are less, and therefore the local revenue is less. DUH.

improving

And you're implying that the local small business do not? Another big DUH.

an

Tax

etc.

As if..

The traffic issue is often a legitimate problem brought up in meetings because it can be easily quantified. The traffice eng'r puts a box and counts the number of cars. If it's a lot more, then it's a problem.

This ends up costing the municipality a lot of money because they may have to mitigate the traffic problens. But all this is not really related to the other legitimate topics that were brought up in this thread.

three

shop.

on it.

Maybe that's because they know the proprietors, and they know the owner has to make a decent living, and can't close up his shop and start working for Wal-mart part-time at sub-poverty wages and expect to make a living.

[snip]

The problem is that the "$3 part" isn't. It's a fraction of a dollar when it leaves the plant in China. Wal-mart _dictates_ to the manufacturer what they will pay for it. And the extra $5 you claim the mom-n-pop stores are overcharging looks like peanuts when you compare it to the amount that Wal-mart is 'overcharging' you for the $3 part - percentage-wise.

I just got through watching ABC News, and they showed a piece about kids playing mature rated video games. They said that the average young adult has spent ten thousand hours playing video games.

The thought occurred to me that this may be a major contributor to the dumbing of young kids. They don't spend enough time reading even a newspaper. The kids have substituted video games as their entertainment. Bunch of illiterates!

In a like manner, I would compare Wal-mart to this in that they are giving the consumer not mind candy but wallet candy, and in so doing, undermining the country economically, just like the video games are undermining the minds of the younger generation.

lower

You don't _have_ to shop there. There are other factors. One is Costco. They may sell it cheaper than Wal-mart. Another factor is you may be paying more for the Wal-mart goods because you have to drive more miles to get the goods, and as gas prices increase, this may be an even bigger factor. Before the Wal-mart came to the local mall, I wouldn't shop at either Wal-mart ot Costco because they were ten miles too far away.

a

what had

Again, as I stated above, that's an incorrect assumption. DUH.

been on

Your soapbox is made of cheap cardboard because you got it at Wal-mart. :-P

your

chase

share

Perhaps it's better that the average consumer gets his wallet candy at Wal-mart. That way, they will leave us, the ones with more common sense, to shop online and on Ebay, and get even better deals. ;-)

Dark

first

market

give me

market?

No, it was (and this was the reason the Japanese gov't caught them) because they were _overcharging_ the Japanese consumers for the TVs, so they could still make a profit.

That's not

prices,

are

No, as I said above they screwed their own people to make inroads into the U.S. domestic TV market. Simply shifting the costs.

As for FAIR prices, the gov't charged these companies with dumping them at UNfair prices, below FAIR market value.

because

No. The U.S. _pressured_ the Japanese to forgive, and _not_ pay the 150 million to the domestic mfgrs, and in return, let the U.S. military put bases in Japan to thwart the Soviet cold war threat.

of

be

shouldn't

Wal-mart is dictating to the Chinese mfgrs what price they will pay, and in so doing are damaging the Chinese economy. But they can do it because they have such a large percentage of the total Chinese exports.

guilty

not a

what the

over

them??

WTF is the matter with you? Overcharging? They're losing their behinds and having to move all their production overseas. Those jobs that are lost are _your_ jobs, so now you can't even afford to buy the goods! HAR-HAR!

shouldn't

This would be true if the playing field were level. But it's not. And that's why the gov't is putting tariffs on the goods. To level the playing field.

Which would you rather have? A decent wage in a decent economy, or no job, on welfare, in a country that's turning into a third world economy?

It's your choice.

GREAT PRICE, too bad its all made in China and no here.

We need jobs for people here, thanks for helping, your a good shopper too bad your kids won't be able to buy anything there because they won't have a job.

Some would call it dumping, others would call it a very clever tactic.

Excuse me, but if Walmart "dictates" a price, and that price CAN be met, what's wrong with that? What is wrong with efficiency?

That's simply not how it works. Lets look at Japan. They USED to be the number one sellers of "cheap stuff", now they are the number one sellers of some expensive stuff (i.e. cars, electronics, gadgets). How did they do that?

Just because something is made in the US today doesn't mean it SHOULD be made there. If manufacturing of some items is cheaper in other countries it should be made in those other countries, the extra capacity in the states will mean other things will be made.

There's alot of fear mongering about "off shoring" that goes on, I don't buy it at all. If off shoring were as bad as SOME try to make us believe North America would be a desert.

Level playing field??? What the heck are you talking about? If it costs $2 to make paper cup in NA and only $0.05 in China, why, as a consumer, should I buy the $2 paper cup???? The answer is there is NO reason I buy the $2 paper cup. Paper cup manufacturing SHOULD be done in China, and the capacity freed up on the paper cup lines can be dedicated to something else, i.e. making plastic cups.

There is NO evidence that the country would turn into a "third world economy". What will simply happen is production of some items will be done elsewhere, and other industry will come to bear in the coutry you're in. No third world.

On top of that, do you REALLY think I'd choose an economy where I'm paying

10X more for paper cups just to subsidize the workers making the $2 paper cups???

Yes it is, and my choice isn't one of the "options" you gave me since neither is valid.

Hehe, you ARE good at twisting the truth are you?

So, lets see, you think that when prices drop, the NUMBER of items sold will be the same?

WRONG. If prices drop MORE items will be purchased. In the end, AT WORST, the tax revenue will be the same. MUCH more likely is the HUGE volume Walmart deals with will INCREASE tax revenue.

But more traffic means more people shopping. More people shopping means more people stopping for gas or a bite to eat at the local restaurant. All this means MORE incoming money to the town, easily balancing the slight increase in road maintenance.

Percentage doesn't matter to the consumer. The consumer sees a part for sale at $8 at one place and at $3 at another. It doesn't MATTER how much profit is being made on that $3 part, the consumer sees a substantial savings. That is GOOD for the consumer.

Wow, you sound like a very interesting person. Listen, go bad to reading your newspaper.

Hint: the internet requires ALOT of reading, and show me a kid into video games that ISN'T into the net.

Just because they're not reading what YOU consider worthwhile doesn't mean they aren't reading.

The fact is that people in China and Indonesia and Africa need jobs, too. In fact, they need them a lot worse than we do, for basic things like food and medicine and keeping their kids alive. Did you buy an American made DVD player, TV, bench vise, or dinner plates? Grapes? Flowers? Lumber?

My kids will do fine, and I hope those Chinese and African kids will, too. People are people.

John

But they shouldn't 'take' them from us; they shouldn't get jobs at the expense of other countries. And many other countries are primareily an agarian economy. The jobs they get aren't as necessary as for our industrialized society.

They already keep their families in basic necessities with a barter system. Fishermen trade with farmers to get the staples to each other.

Modern medicine hasn't been widely introduced in many countries. That's why there's so much of an aids epidemic in many countries. They have a system, and it's not like our modern medicine.

Point? I'm not sure.

People are people but societies are societies. You can see that right now, with the problems in the middle east. As a matter of fact, I'd say that much of the problems there have been caused by the introduction of 'modern' culture, and they're going thru a backlash, to the 'old ways'. Similarly to what happened in Iran decades ago.

"John Larkin" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Dont mean to butt in here but I also think that if you shop at Walmart you deserve the Poverty level wage you are going to end up with. If you support poverty wages then no one who pays real wages can compete. so your wage will eventually be a poverty wage as your sector of employment becomes swallowed in the eddie.

Doug