Re: eer

Well, I claim that it is possible to put an elephant into an ordinary aspirin bottle, too.

Both of us seem to have about the same amount of reasoning and evidence in support of our statements.

Bob M.

Electronic electricity repository is an utterly unworkable, crackpot energy "concept" that apprently aims to entertain the readers of this group by being posted over and over and over again, despite it having been completely discredited ten ways to Christmas a long, long time ago. It has absolutely no validity at all, and is about as likely to be used for "storing electrical energy from any source" as, say, an elephant is of flying to the Moon on Cavorite wings. EER is supposedly intended to accommodate such things as electric vehicles, home heating, etc., but since it's being proposed by someone who already admits that he knows nothing at all about this field, we really, really do have to assume that it's being presented here mostly as a weak attempt at humor. The funniest example of where "EER" would utterly fail to work is the EV - Frank's crazy notion of an electric car that would run on an "ever-accumulating" power source. That is to say, this nutcase - but fortunately, no one else who possesses two brain cells to rub together, thinks that any and all sources of electrical energy -- including "diffuse sources", whatever the hell THOSE are supposed to be

-- could be collected, combined and stored in the form of capacitance. Never mind that Frank doesn't understand that energy isn't stored "in the form of capacitance" in the first place, or even the first thing about how capacitive storage actually works - this is HIS IDEA, by Gawd, and it just seems SO damned attractive (to him) that it simply MUST be right! But, wouldn't the capacitor plates be bigger than the vehicle? Well, yes they would, but that's just the first in a long, long line of both practical and theoretical objections to this absurd idea. Of course, Frank has some idea - how this idea was obtained is unclear, although we can't put recreational pharmaceuticals out of consideration at this point - that a way to increase the surface area of the plates *within a small perimeter* could be fashioned. Never mind that this wouldn't have the slightest impact on the energy density capabilities of the capacitor in question, something that can easily be demonstrated by anyone who even barely passed freshman geometry - again, this idea is one which Frank is clearly in love with, and therefore it MUST be right. And apparently, there simply isn't room within Frank's brain for troublesome trivia like basic algebra, geometry, or physics. Some might suggest that Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology might be used to find those locations within Frank's cerebrum where such things might still reside, or we could possible even employ nanotechnology to accomplish this (although this seems like a very cruel thing to do to a nanobot) -- but clearly, to locate his understanding of these topics, we'll have to use SOME methods that could identify items roughly halfway to the molecular level. Doing this -- identifying such massive ignorance within a small perimeter

-- is the heart of any attempt to understand the source of "eer". Such a project is undoubtedly needing a commitment of funds roughly equal to that of the Human Genome Project, which admittedly is taken on faith

- and success could be many years away.

I mean, just consider the level of absurdity we're up against here. Frank believes that "the object is to configure the plates and dielectric so they all fit like Jell-O in a mold, and to make these all small in perimeter -- while yielding enormous surface area" - as if, again, that is somehow going to increase the amount of energy one could store in a given volume. We would also have to somehow understand how a statement like "it is expected that about 15 sources of renewable energy (solar, wind, wave, etc.) would be able to contribute to the 'eer pool' of stored electrical energy" has anything at all to do with the problems, no, the impossibilities, in what is being discussed here. In time, though, an examination of how stupidity and ignorance can be stored in this way could effectively replace Saturday Night Live and Comedy Central combined as a source of much of the nation's entertainment.

NOTE: EER absolutely, in no way, breaks the Second Law! It doesn't have to, since there so many OTHER laws that it would have to break to get even halfway toward being a viable concept.

If you're as tired of seeing this nonsense as some have claimed, you may want to take it up with:

Frank Lincoln snipped-for-privacy@cs.com snipped-for-privacy@aol.com snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

...but don't expect the rest of us to join you in this. We're having too much fun laughing at this stuff!

By the way, In case you hadn't noticed, Frank is VERY weak with computers. And physics. And math. And just about any other subject you'd have to understand in order to actually make a contribution in the field of energy generation and storage.

But, as he says, "this is no more than a guess from a novice" and "there are some mistakes in here", showing that, if nothing else, he is truly a master of extreme understatement.

In one sentence, he is saying that, despite all evidence and arguments presented by those who actually DO understand these subjects, that a very, very advanced capacitor is possible, regardless of what those stupid ol' physics texts would have you believe.

But it's by no means an energy concept.

And no, there is no 21st Law of Thermodynamics. Once again, we already have more than sufficient laws to show what nonsense this whole EER thing is.

But there IS a 21st Century Law of Crackpot Behavior. Simply stated, it is, "No energy concept involving capacitance shall ever be considered as unworthy of posting over and over and over again, no matter how silly it is or how many times it has been utterly discredited."

Freud could not have seen this coming, but then in his day, there was not the multitude of diffuse (and obtuse) forms of crackpot thinking that we are forced to contend with today.

There is NO way around this Law. By that, I mean that there is apparently nothing we can do but continue to be subjected to Frank's endless postings, and take whatever meager enjoyment we can from them. There is simply no way to begin solving the "diffuse" (at best!) nature of his understanding of the subjects at hand before we would be able to put the energy behind his constant posting to work in any effective way. Say, basket weaving or bowling-ball polishing.

Just remeber that, in Frank's little world, and no matter what any of us say, this will remain "A goal......an idea......a prediction......." Crackpotism is easy, and there is no shortage of such here.

After all, we ARE talking about someone who seriously believes that, thanks SOLELY to his Marvelous Invention,

"We don't need oil. We don't need batteries. We don't need internal combustion engines. We don't need fusion. We don't need hybrids. We don't need hydrogen-powered cars. We don't need ethanol. We don't need natural gas. We don't need methane. We don't even need efficiency. We don't even need conservation."

I ask you - could one even hope for better evidence of the absurdity of this whole idea than THAT?

Lies, again.

Again, those lyrics and taglines are for you:

"There's nothing better than a good lie."

"Can't find yourself, lost in your lie."

"It never was and never will be You're not real, and you can't save me Somehow now, you're everybody's fool "

If it's possible, DO IT.

------------- Sure, but not the way you say, the physics is against it.

Nukes that size can destroy cities, but that's not the modality you suggest.

Electrostatics has much lower spatial theoretic limits.

Chemical can do it, and the forces generated by chemistry are a kind of electrostatic, but the kind of electrostatic you suggest cannot.

If you simply went back to school and mastered the physics, you'd immediately understand why and slap your forehead for making such a ridiculous ass of yourself.

-Steve

And now you're having problems with your caps lock key in addition to this delusion that you "know" something.

Bob M.

FEerguy9 writes within:

I think this song applies to you, EER lie:

Evanescence - Everybody's Fool

By: A. Lee; B. Moody; D. Hodges "Perfect by nature icons of self indulgence just what we all need more lies about a world that

Never was and never will be have you no shame don't you see me you know you've got everybody fool Look here, she comes now bow down and stare in wonder oh how we love you no flaws when you're pretending but now i know she

Never was and never will be you don't know how you've betrayed me and somehow you've got everybody fooled

Without the mask where will you hide can't find yourself lost in your lie

I know the truth now I know who you are and i don't love you anymore

It never was and never will be you're not real and you can't save me somehow now you're everybody's fool " For good, don't you get that EER _ISN'T_?

you're still "everybody's fool"!

Chaos Master writes within:

s/lie/liar

or

s/lie/fool

(for the non-VI users out here: replace 'lie' with 'liar' or 'fool')

-- Chaos Master®, posting from Brazil. "Two of the most famous products of Berkeley are LSD and Unix. I don't think that this is a coincidence." -- Anonymous "I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not" - Kurt Cobain

The Evanescen(t/ce) HP:

FEerguy9 writes within:

yOUR cAPS lOCK sEEMS tO bE bROKEN, like your ideas are. Refer to article snipped-for-privacy@news.individual.net .

---> You're everybody's fool and can't do anything against it

A worthy idea. One worth investigating. Sadly for you it doesn't take much investigation (for those skilled in the relevant arts) to show that it's not really as effective a solution as it may initially seem. Those skilled in the arts have explained to you numerous times in this group why this solution will not provide the energy density you hope it will. The science you're using (more surface area = more capacitance) breaks down at the scales you are proposing.

I'm sure that with capacitor plates manufactured to molecular tolerances we could improve energy density compared to existing capacitors. It would not still not beat fuel cells, internal combustion or chemical batteries.

Tim

WITH

Well you wouldn't want the plates in contact or you have a short circuit. What would you put between them?

CONTACT

I don't think there are any very good natural dielectrics? Which one did you have in mind? If the plates are only a few molecules apart it must be a very good dielectric or the breakdown voltage will be unacceptably low.

WITH

Except, of course, that this does nothing to increase the energy density available in a given volume, for some very basic reasons of geometry that you apparently keep failing to grasp.

Bob M.

Electronic electricity repository is an utterly unworkable, crackpot energy "concept" that apprently aims to entertain the readers of this group by being posted over and over and over again, despite it having been completely discredited ten ways to Christmas a long, long time ago. It has absolutely no validity at all, and is about as likely to be used for "storing electrical energy from any source" as, say, an elephant is of flying to the Moon on Cavorite wings. EER is supposedly intended to accommodate such things as electric vehicles, home heating, etc., but since it's being proposed by someone who already admits that he knows nothing at all about this field, we really, really do have to assume that it's being presented here mostly as a weak attempt at humor. The funniest example of where "EER" would utterly fail to work is the EV - Frank's crazy notion of an electric car that would run on an "ever-accumulating" power source. That is to say, this nutcase - but fortunately, no one else who possesses two brain cells to rub together, thinks that any and all sources of electrical energy -- including "diffuse sources", whatever the hell THOSE are supposed to be

-- could be collected, combined and stored in the form of capacitance. Never mind that Frank doesn't understand that energy isn't stored "in the form of capacitance" in the first place, or even the first thing about how capacitive storage actually works - this is HIS IDEA, by Gawd, and it just seems SO damned attractive (to him) that it simply MUST be right! But, wouldn't the capacitor plates be bigger than the vehicle? Well, yes they would, but that's just the first in a long, long line of both practical and theoretical objections to this absurd idea. Of course, Frank has some idea - how this idea was obtained is unclear, although we can't put recreational pharmaceuticals out of consideration at this point - that a way to increase the surface area of the plates *within a small perimeter* could be fashioned. Never mind that this wouldn't have the slightest impact on the energy density capabilities of the capacitor in question, something that can easily be demonstrated by anyone who even barely passed freshman geometry - again, this idea is one which Frank is clearly in love with, and therefore it MUST be right. And apparently, there simply isn't room within Frank's brain for troublesome trivia like basic algebra, geometry, or physics. Some might suggest that Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology might be used to find those locations within Frank's cerebrum where such things might still reside, or we could possible even employ nanotechnology to accomplish this (although this seems like a very cruel thing to do to a nanobot) -- but clearly, to locate his understanding of these topics, we'll have to use SOME methods that could identify items roughly halfway to the molecular level. Doing this -- identifying such massive ignorance within a small perimeter

-- is the heart of any attempt to understand the source of "eer". Such a project is undoubtedly needing a commitment of funds roughly equal to that of the Human Genome Project, which admittedly is taken on faith

- and success could be many years away.

I mean, just consider the level of absurdity we're up against here. Frank believes that "the object is to configure the plates and dielectric so they all fit like Jell-O in a mold, and to make these all small in perimeter -- while yielding enormous surface area" - as if, again, that is somehow going to increase the amount of energy one could store in a given volume. We would also have to somehow understand how a statement like "it is expected that about 15 sources of renewable energy (solar, wind, wave, etc.) would be able to contribute to the 'eer pool' of stored electrical energy" has anything at all to do with the problems, no, the impossibilities, in what is being discussed here. In time, though, an examination of how stupidity and ignorance can be stored in this way could effectively replace Saturday Night Live and Comedy Central combined as a source of much of the nation's entertainment.

NOTE: EER absolutely, in no way, breaks the Second Law! It doesn't have to, since there so many OTHER laws that it would have to break to get even halfway toward being a viable concept.

If you're as tired of seeing this nonsense as some have claimed, you may want to take it up with:

Frank Lincoln snipped-for-privacy@cs.com snipped-for-privacy@aol.com snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

...but don't expect the rest of us to join you in this. We're having too much fun laughing at this stuff!

By the way, In case you hadn't noticed, Frank is VERY weak with computers. And physics. And math. And just about any other subject you'd have to understand in order to actually make a contribution in the field of energy generation and storage.

But, as he says, "this is no more than a guess from a novice" and "there are some mistakes in here", showing that, if nothing else, he is truly a master of extreme understatement.

In one sentence, he is saying that, despite all evidence and arguments presented by those who actually DO understand these subjects, that a very, very advanced capacitor is possible, regardless of what those stupid ol' physics texts would have you believe.

But it's by no means an energy concept.

And no, there is no 21st Law of Thermodynamics. Once again, we already have more than sufficient laws to show what nonsense this whole EER thing is.

But there IS a 21st Century Law of Crackpot Behavior. Simply stated, it is, "No energy concept involving capacitance shall ever be considered as unworthy of posting over and over and over again, no matter how silly it is or how many times it has been utterly discredited."

Freud could not have seen this coming, but then in his day, there was not the multitude of diffuse (and obtuse) forms of crackpot thinking that we are forced to contend with today.

There is NO way around this Law. By that, I mean that there is apparently nothing we can do but continue to be subjected to Frank's endless postings, and take whatever meager enjoyment we can from them. There is simply no way to begin solving the "diffuse" (at best!) nature of his understanding of the subjects at hand before we would be able to put the energy behind his constant posting to work in any effective way. Say, basket weaving or bowling-ball polishing.

Just remeber that, in Frank's little world, and no matter what any of us say, this will remain "A goal......an idea......a prediction......." Crackpotism is easy, and there is no shortage of such here.

After all, we ARE talking about someone who seriously believes that, thanks SOLELY to his Marvelous Invention,

"We don't need oil. We don't need batteries. We don't need internal combustion engines. We don't need fusion. We don't need hybrids. We don't need hydrogen-powered cars. We don't need ethanol. We don't need natural gas. We don't need methane. We don't even need efficiency. We don't even need conservation."

I ask you - could one even hope for better evidence of the absurdity of this whole idea than THAT?

Assuming that you meant an "archiac" form of energy STORAGE, you have yet to show that you have anything better - while on the other hand it has been repeatedly shown that you not only do not, but CANNOT.

Bob M.

And those are just the first things on what is apparently a very long list.

FACTOR

In short, no. The more complete answer is that you cannot increase energy DENSITY by simply increasing the plate area. You increase the capacitance, but ALWAYS at the expense of the working voltage, for ANY dielectric (whether the dielectric is even possible or not is irrelevant - this is a simple fact of geometry and the basic operation of a simple capacitor). So energy density CANNOT improve, and in fact has to go DOWN.

By the way, please note that the "Shift" and "Caps Lock" keys, as I have demonstrated in the above, can be used to both make words all upper-case, and to capitalize the first word in a sentence, as per conventions. It's not just something to be struck at random.

Bob M.

Ah, so now you're right simply by declaring yourself to be. How interesting. Why don't you simply declare yourself God, and change the laws of physics to permit your silly notion to work, then?

Bob M.

FEerguy9 puts out:

I think this song still applies to you, EER fool:

Evanescence - Everybody's Fool

By: Amy Lee; Ben Moody; David Hodges "Perfect by nature icons of self indulgence just what we all need more lies about a world that

Never was and never will be have you no shame don't you see me you know you've got everybody fool Look here, she comes now bow down and stare in wonder oh how we love you no flaws when you're pretending but now i know she

Never was and never will be you don't know how you've betrayed me and somehow you've got everybody fooled

Without the mask where will you hide can't find yourself lost in your lie

I know the truth now I know who you are and i don't love you anymore

It never was and never will be you're not real and you can't save me somehow now you're everybody's fool " For good, don't you get that EER _ISN'T_?

--->>> You're still "everybody's fool"!

... but they can't either. None of the above are dealing with energy densities anything like what you're talking about, nor are their products anything beyond what would be expected by someone who actually understands the physics of capacitors.

Bob M.

------------- You're an idiot. Electronic devices CONTROL energy, they don't "make" it!

-Steve