Re: eer

The gasoline engine part of the hybrid power train doesn't actually SEE that dramatically changing load; that's the whole point. The battery (or, in some cases a "supercapacitor" array) does just what the energy storage or "main filter" caps do in a power supply - smooth out instantaneous changes in the load such that the primary power source sees a more-or-less steady demand.

But the question you need to ask here is what "optimum" means in this context. It's pretty much guaranteed that this range is NOT where your truck's engine is putting out its maximum power output (that would occur much higher). But since the truck doesn't NEED the maximum power of the engine very often, "optimum" in this case means that it's loafing along. It's burning the least amount of gas that it could while still being capable of the flexibility you need of it, but it's NOT as efficient as using a much smaller engine that IS operating at or near its peak output all the time.

Which do you think is more efficient, overall - a conventional engine of, say, 150 HP max output that's "loafing" at 2200 RPM (vs., say, a 5500 or higher RPM point where that peak power is actually produced), or a smaller, lighter, 30 or 40 HP engine that's running at max output whenever it's running at all?

Bob M.

45-52 seem typical. Search for MPG on this forum...

You could tell her to pump the tyres up see....

Interesting discussion. I drive a NON-HYBRID GEO 3 cylinder, I gt 41 MPG in the city, and 47 MPG on the highway. The price difference is over the amount you might save in the life of the Car.

To quote the old lady in the commercial, "Where's the Beef?"

on the

life of

There isn't any; no one has claimed that a hybrid per se is going to be HUGELY more efficient than a straight gasoline-engined, conventional power train that is ALREADY optimized for fuel efficiency and is in a small, lightweight vehicle. It will still have some efficiency gains, but there's no "magic bullet" that will let you extract 2-3X more MPG out of a gallon of gas if you're already doing the rest of it right.

Bob M.

Yes, but the battery or capacitor will not sustain the load of going uphill very far. The full load will eventually be on the gas engine, which may not be capable of climbing hills very fast.

That's why we need eer, so we have infinate storage capacity and don't have to worry about climbing hills.

Good explanation, I wasn't thinking a big engine operating at low power would be much different than a smaller engine operating at full power, other than friction and weight. The smaller engine would weigh less which would improve milage and the larger engine probably has more internal friction which decreases efficiency. Maybe there other factors.

I vote for the smaller engine, but how long will it last running at full power all the time? Isn't it subjected to (more than normal) wear and tear running at full speed?

-Bill

You're right - it won't sustain it very far. Properly sizing the battery/capacitor/whatever - the "flywheel" in the hybrid system - is one of the tradeoffs that has to be made in the design of such vehicles.

ROTFL...yeah, RIGHT. Don't tell me YOU'VE gone over the dark side of Frank's delusions, too? :-)

But friction and weight are big deals! Look at the overall efficiency of a typical IC engine, in terms of the total energy released through the combustion of gasoline, and how much actually makes it out of the engine in the form of mechanical energy delivered to the rest of the drive train - and then see where the losses occur. There's a LOT to be gained there.

Well, that would depends on what it's designed for and how well it was designed in the first place, right? And while "running flat out all the time" might at first glance seem to be a Really Bad Thing for an engine, consider the problems the engine faces in stop-and-start driving as well.

Consider further some examples from those applications in which engine weight and efficiency have been the primary considerations, and NOT great flexibility in operating speed and load - such as aircraft engines. Both reciprocating (piston) and turbine (engines) in aviation applications generally follow the "run flat out all the time" model (well, not really "flat out," but certainly close to the point of maximum overall efficiency while cruising, and at a pretty constant speed. Typical TBOs (time between overhaul) for piston engines in light aircraft are generally in the 1500-2000 hour range; even if the AVERAGE speed of travel over that period is only 100 MPH, you've wrung

150-200,000 miles of travel out of the engine. Yes, this IS a very oversimplified look at this, but it does show, I think, that running engines in such a regime is not necessarily something that kills off the engine in short order.

Bob M.

I don't think we expect 2x or 3x but the MPG figures seem to be almost the same (perhaps only 10% better?). You can get better MPG by changing to a diesel.

I can only think of three reasons to buy a hybrid car...

1) You care for the environment

..except if the MPG is the same it must be poluting the environment the same (worse if you have heavy metals in the battery at the end of it's life?)

2) It saves you money

...except the saving doesn't seem to cover the increased cost.

3) You think they are cool.

...well I think all electric is cooler.

There's even more to be gained, when you look at how much makes it from the drive train out to the wheels. With a design using wheel motors (which are pretty cool, really), you can get away without having a drive train, gear box and clutch which will all save weight as well compared to a normal car, not to mention saving on drive train losses. From what I've seen at the moment, wheel motors are still a bit underpowered, but that should change.

-Ed

--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.)       (er258)(@)(eng.cam)(.ac.uk)

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{moveto}d -1 r 230 350 m 0 1 179{1 index show 88 rotate 4 mul 0 rmoveto}
for /s 15 d f pop 240 420 m 0 1 3 { 4 2 1 r sub -1 r show } for showpage

same

Maybe not; this assumes that the small, relatively constant-speed engine of the hybrid is as difficult to clean up as the conventional engine, and I don't believe that's true. The battery materials should be recyclable.

Well, the conventional gasoline-engined car has been around for about a hundred years now, while hybrids, at least in their current incarnation, are very new. I would have to expect that further developments can decrease the cost of the hybrid relative to the conventional drivetrain - in short, this factor should change with time.

What's REALLY costly now is the full electric; the only ones of those to even attempt to make a go of it in the market have been heavily subsidized, and STILL don't compete well.

Why? A car is a machine for getting from here to there, and unless there's something particularly obnoxious about the behavior of the drivetrain, what's the difference between a hybrid and an "all electric" - or among ANY choice of propulsion systems - from any standpoint that impacts "coolness" (whatever THAT is)? (If "coolness" were what mattered, then I'll go for a gas turbine based hybrid, and get that Batmobile whine....:-))

Bob M.

Currently available hybrids (Honda Insight, Honda Civic hybrid, Toyota Prius) all use NiMH (nickel-metal hydride batteries), which do not contain any heavy metals. The 12v accessory battery is usually a bit smaller than you'll find in traditional cars, and is the same heavy-metal PbA lead acid battery that all other traditional cars have. Both NiMH and the

12v PbA batteries are easily recycled. (Toyota pays a $200 "bounty" to dealers to make sure that they recycle batteries in the event that it needs to be done, say when dismantling a wrecked Prius for parts.) I believe the Ford Escape hybrid, the Lexus RX400H (hybrid RX330, and the Toyota Highlander hybrid are all again going to have NiMH hybrid batteries, too.

As for polluting the environment, it depends on what pollutants you are looking for. CO2 (carbon dioxide) emissions is directly proportional to MPG. However, CO (carbon monoxide), NOx (nitrous oxides), HCs (unburt hydrocarbons), and particulate matter depends on how clean/efficient the vehicle's engine/exhaust/fuel system is. While a manual transmission VW TDI (diesel) may be able to get similar MPG to a manual transmission Honda Civic hybrid, the HCH can qualify as a AT-PZEV in California (SULEV with no evaporative emissions), while the VW TDI until this year couldn't be sold in CA because of the diesel's filty emmisions (partially thanks to the dirty diesel fuel sold in the US). For more information, I suggest reading the EPA's Green Vehicle Guide:

FEerguy9 wrote:

------------------------------------------------------ Electronic electricity repository is an utterly unworkable, crackpot energy "concept" that apprently aims to entertain the readers of this group by being posted over and over and over again, despite it having been completely discredited ten ways to Christmas a long, long time ago. It has absolutely no validity at all, and is about as likely to be used for "storing electrical energy from any source" as, say, an elephant is of flying to the Moon on Cavorite wings. EER is supposedly intended to accommodate such things as electric vehicles, home heating, etc., but since it's being proposed by someone who already admits that he knows nothing at all about this field, we really, really do have to assume that it's being presented here mostly as a weak attempt at humor. The funniest example of where "EER" would utterly fail to work is the EV - Frank's crazy notion of an electric car that would run on an "ever- accumulating" power source. That is to say, this nutcase - but fortunately, no one else who possesses two brain cells to rub together, thinks that any and all sources of electrical energy -- including "diffuse sources", whatever the hell THOSE are supposed to be -- could be collected, combined and stored in the form of capacitance. Never mind that Frank doesn't understand that energy isn't stored "in the form of capacitance" in the first place, or even the first thing about how capacitive storage actually works - this is HIS IDEA, by Gawd, and it just seems SO damned attractive (to him) that it simply MUST be right! But, wouldn't the capacitor plates be bigger than the vehicle? Well, yes they would, but that's just the first in a long, long line of both practical and theoretical objections to this absurd idea. Of course, Frank has some idea - how this idea was obtained is unclear, although we can't put recreational pharmaceuticals out of consideration at this point - that a way to increase the surface area of the plates

*within a small perimeter* could be fashioned. Never mind that this wouldn't have the slightest impact on the energy density capabilities of the capacitor in question, something that can easily be demonstrated by anyone who even barely passed freshman geometry - again, this idea is one which Frank is clearly in love with, and therefore it MUST be right. And apparently, there simply isn't room within Frank's brain for troublesome trivia like basic algebra, geometry, or physics. Some might suggest that Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology might be used to find those locations within Frank's cerebrum where such things might still reside, or we could possible even employ nanotechnology to accomplish this (although this seems like a very cruel thing to do to a nanobot) -- but clearly, to locate his understanding of these topics, we'll have to use SOME methods that could identify items roughly halfway to the molecular level. Doing this -- identifying such massive ignorance within a small perimeter -- is the heart of any attempt to understand the source of "eer". Such a project is undoubtedly needing a commitment of funds roughly equal to that of the Human Genome Project, which admittedly is taken on faith - and success could be many years away.

I mean, just consider the level of absurdity we're up against here. Frank believes that "the object is to configure the plates and dielectric so they all fit like Jell-O in a mold, and to make these all small in perimeter -- while yielding enormous surface area" - as if, again, that is somehow going to increase the amount of energy one could store in a given volume. We would also have to somehow understand how a statement like "it is expected that about 15 sources of renewable energy (solar, wind, wave, etc.) would be able to contribute to the 'eer pool' of stored electrical energy" has anything at all to do with the problems, no, the impossibilities, in what is being discussed here. In time, though, an examination of how stupidity and ignorance can be stored in this way could effectively replace Saturday Night Live and Comedy Central combined as a source of much of the nation's entertainment.

NOTE: EER absolutely, in no way, breaks the Second Law! It doesn't have to, since there so many OTHER laws that it would have to break to get even halfway toward being a viable concept.

If you're as tired of seeing this nonsense as some have claimed, you may want to take it up with:

Frank Lincoln snipped-for-privacy@cs.com snipped-for-privacy@aol.com snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

...but don't expect the rest of us to join you in this. We're having too much fun laughing at this stuff!

By the way, In case you hadn't noticed, Frank is VERY weak with computers. And physics. And math. And just about any other subject you'd have to understand in order to actually make a contribution in the field of energy generation and storage.

But, as he says, "this is no more than a guess from a novice" and "there are some mistakes in here", showing that, if nothing else, he is truly a master of extreme understatement.

In one sentence, he is saying that, despite all evidence and arguments presented by those who actually DO understand these subjects, that a very, very advanced capacitor is possible, regardless of what those stupid ol' physics texts would have you believe.

But it's by no means an energy concept.

And no, there is no 21st Law of Thermodynamics. Once again, we already have more than sufficient laws to show what nonsense this whole EER thing is.

But there IS a 21st Century Law of Crackpot Behavior. Simply stated, it is, "No energy concept involving capacitance shall ever be considered as unworthy of posting over and over and over again, no matter how silly it is or how many times it has been utterly discredited."

Freud could not have seen this coming, but then in his day, there was not the multitude of diffuse (and obtuse) forms of crackpot thinking that we are forced to contend with today.

There is NO way around this Law. By that, I mean that there is apparently nothing we can do but continue to be subjected to Frank's endless postings, and take whatever meager enjoyment we can from them. There is simply no way to begin solving the "diffuse" (at best!) nature of his understanding of the subjects at hand before we would be able to put the energy behind his constant posting to work in any effective way. Say, basket weaving or bowling-ball polishing.

Just remeber that, in Frank's little world, and no matter what any of us say, this will remain "A goal......an idea......a prediction......." Crackpotism is easy, and there is no shortage of such here.

After all, we ARE talking about someone who seriously believes that, thanks SOLELY to his Marvelous Invention,

"We don't need oil. We don't need batteries. We don't need internal combustion engines. We don't need fusion. We don't need hybrids. We don't need hydrogen-powered cars. We don't need ethanol. We don't need natural gas. We don't need methane. We don't even need efficiency. We don't even need conservation."

I ask you - could one even hope for better evidence of the absurdity of this whole idea than THAT?

Electronic electricity repository is an utterly unworkable, crackpot energy "concept" that apprently aims to entertain the readers of this group by being posted over and over and over again, despite it having been completely discredited ten ways to Christmas a long, long time ago. It has absolutely no validity at all, and is about as likely to be used for "storing electrical energy from any source" as, say, an elephant is of flying to the Moon on Cavorite wings. EER is supposedly intended to accommodate such things as electric vehicles, home heating, etc., but since it's being proposed by someone who already admits that he knows nothing at all about this field, we really, really do have to assume that it's being presented here mostly as a weak attempt at humor. The funniest example of where "EER" would utterly fail to work is the EV - Frank's crazy notion of an electric car that would run on an "ever-accumulating" power source. That is to say, this nutcase - but fortunately, no one else who possesses two brain cells to rub together, thinks that any and all sources of electrical energy -- including "diffuse sources", whatever the hell THOSE are supposed to be

-- could be collected, combined and stored in the form of capacitance. Never mind that Frank doesn't understand that energy isn't stored "in the form of capacitance" in the first place, or even the first thing about how capacitive storage actually works - this is HIS IDEA, by Gawd, and it just seems SO damned attractive (to him) that it simply MUST be right! But, wouldn't the capacitor plates be bigger than the vehicle? Well, yes they would, but that's just the first in a long, long line of both practical and theoretical objections to this absurd idea. Of course, Frank has some idea - how this idea was obtained is unclear, although we can't put recreational pharmaceuticals out of consideration at this point - that a way to increase the surface area of the plates *within a small perimeter* could be fashioned. Never mind that this wouldn't have the slightest impact on the energy density capabilities of the capacitor in question, something that can easily be demonstrated by anyone who even barely passed freshman geometry - again, this idea is one which Frank is clearly in love with, and therefore it MUST be right. And apparently, there simply isn't room within Frank's brain for troublesome trivia like basic algebra, geometry, or physics. Some might suggest that Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology might be used to find those locations within Frank's cerebrum where such things might still reside, or we could possible even employ nanotechnology to accomplish this (although this seems like a very cruel thing to do to a nanobot) -- but clearly, to locate his understanding of these topics, we'll have to use SOME methods that could identify items roughly halfway to the molecular level. Doing this -- identifying such massive ignorance within a small perimeter

-- is the heart of any attempt to understand the source of "eer". Such a project is undoubtedly needing a commitment of funds roughly equal to that of the Human Genome Project, which admittedly is taken on faith

- and success could be many years away.

I mean, just consider the level of absurdity we're up against here. Frank believes that "the object is to configure the plates and dielectric so they all fit like Jell-O in a mold, and to make these all small in perimeter -- while yielding enormous surface area" - as if, again, that is somehow going to increase the amount of energy one could store in a given volume. We would also have to somehow understand how a statement like "it is expected that about 15 sources of renewable energy (solar, wind, wave, etc.) would be able to contribute to the 'eer pool' of stored electrical energy" has anything at all to do with the problems, no, the impossibilities, in what is being discussed here. In time, though, an examination of how stupidity and ignorance can be stored in this way could effectively replace Saturday Night Live and Comedy Central combined as a source of much of the nation's entertainment.

NOTE: EER absolutely, in no way, breaks the Second Law! It doesn't have to, since there so many OTHER laws that it would have to break to get even halfway toward being a viable concept.

If you're as tired of seeing this nonsense as some have claimed, you may want to take it up with:

Frank Lincoln snipped-for-privacy@cs.com snipped-for-privacy@aol.com snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

...but don't expect the rest of us to join you in this. We're having too much fun laughing at this stuff!

By the way, In case you hadn't noticed, Frank is VERY weak with computers. And physics. And math. And just about any other subject you'd have to understand in order to actually make a contribution in the field of energy generation and storage.

But, as he says, "this is no more than a guess from a novice" and "there are some mistakes in here", showing that, if nothing else, he is truly a master of extreme understatement.

In one sentence, he is saying that, despite all evidence and arguments presented by those who actually DO understand these subjects, that a very, very advanced capacitor is possible, regardless of what those stupid ol' physics texts would have you believe.

But it's by no means an energy concept.

And no, there is no 21st Law of Thermodynamics. Once again, we already have more than sufficient laws to show what nonsense this whole EER thing is.

But there IS a 21st Century Law of Crackpot Behavior. Simply stated, it is, "No energy concept involving capacitance shall ever be considered as unworthy of posting over and over and over again, no matter how silly it is or how many times it has been utterly discredited."

Freud could not have seen this coming, but then in his day, there was not the multitude of diffuse (and obtuse) forms of crackpot thinking that we are forced to contend with today.

There is NO way around this Law. By that, I mean that there is apparently nothing we can do but continue to be subjected to Frank's endless postings, and take whatever meager enjoyment we can from them. There is simply no way to begin solving the "diffuse" (at best!) nature of his understanding of the subjects at hand before we would be able to put the energy behind his constant posting to work in any effective way. Say, basket weaving or bowling-ball polishing.

Just remeber that, in Frank's little world, and no matter what any of us say, this will remain "A goal......an idea......a prediction......." Crackpotism is easy, and there is no shortage of such here.

After all, we ARE talking about someone who seriously believes that, thanks SOLELY to his Marvelous Invention,

"We don't need oil. We don't need batteries. We don't need internal combustion engines. We don't need fusion. We don't need hybrids. We don't need hydrogen-powered cars. We don't need ethanol. We don't need natural gas. We don't need methane. We don't even need efficiency. We don't even need conservation."

I ask you - could one even hope for better evidence of the absurdity of this whole idea than THAT?

FEerguy9 wrote:

---------------------------- Electronic electricity repository is an utterly unworkable, crackpot energy "concept" that apprently aims to entertain the readers of this group by being posted over and over and over again, despite it having been completely discredited ten ways to Christmas a long, long time ago. It has absolutely no validity at all, and is about as likely to be used for "storing electrical energy from any source" as, say, an elephant is of flying to the Moon on Cavorite wings. EER is supposedly intended to accommodate such things as electric vehicles, home heating, etc., but since it's being proposed by someone who already admits that he knows nothing at all about this field, we really, really do have to assume that it's being presented here mostly as a weak attempt at humor. The funniest example of where "EER" would utterly fail to work is the EV - Frank's crazy notion of an electric car that would run on an "ever- accumulating" power source. That is to say, this nutcase - but fortunately, no one else who possesses two brain cells to rub together, thinks that any and all sources of electrical energy -- including "diffuse sources", whatever the hell THOSE are supposed to be -- could be collected, combined and stored in the form of capacitance. Never mind that Frank doesn't understand that energy isn't stored "in the form of capacitance" in the first place, or even the first thing about how capacitive storage actually works - this is HIS IDEA, by Gawd, and it just seems SO damned attractive (to him) that it simply MUST be right! But, wouldn't the capacitor plates be bigger than the vehicle? Well, yes they would, but that's just the first in a long, long line of both practical and theoretical objections to this absurd idea. Of course, Frank has some idea - how this idea was obtained is unclear, although we can't put recreational pharmaceuticals out of consideration at this point - that a way to increase the surface area of the plates

*within a small perimeter* could be fashioned. Never mind that this wouldn't have the slightest impact on the energy density capabilities of the capacitor in question, something that can easily be demonstrated by anyone who even barely passed freshman geometry - again, this idea is one which Frank is clearly in love with, and therefore it MUST be right. And apparently, there simply isn't room within Frank's brain for troublesome trivia like basic algebra, geometry, or physics. Some might suggest that Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology might be used to find those locations within Frank's cerebrum where such things might still reside, or we could possible even employ nanotechnology to accomplish this (although this seems like a very cruel thing to do to a nanobot) -- but clearly, to locate his understanding of these topics, we'll have to use SOME methods that could identify items roughly halfway to the molecular level. Doing this -- identifying such massive ignorance within a small perimeter -- is the heart of any attempt to understand the source of "eer". Such a project is undoubtedly needing a commitment of funds roughly equal to that of the Human Genome Project, which admittedly is taken on faith - and success could be many years away.

I mean, just consider the level of absurdity we're up against here. Frank believes that "the object is to configure the plates and dielectric so they all fit like Jell-O in a mold, and to make these all small in perimeter -- while yielding enormous surface area" - as if, again, that is somehow going to increase the amount of energy one could store in a given volume. We would also have to somehow understand how a statement like "it is expected that about 15 sources of renewable energy (solar, wind, wave, etc.) would be able to contribute to the 'eer pool' of stored electrical energy" has anything at all to do with the problems, no, the impossibilities, in what is being discussed here. In time, though, an examination of how stupidity and ignorance can be stored in this way could effectively replace Saturday Night Live and Comedy Central combined as a source of much of the nation's entertainment.

NOTE: EER absolutely, in no way, breaks the Second Law! It doesn't have to, since there so many OTHER laws that it would have to break to get even halfway toward being a viable concept.

If you're as tired of seeing this nonsense as some have claimed, you may want to take it up with:

Frank Lincoln snipped-for-privacy@cs.com snipped-for-privacy@aol.com snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

...but don't expect the rest of us to join you in this. We're having too much fun laughing at this stuff!

By the way, In case you hadn't noticed, Frank is VERY weak with computers. And physics. And math. And just about any other subject you'd have to understand in order to actually make a contribution in the field of energy generation and storage.

But, as he says, "this is no more than a guess from a novice" and "there are some mistakes in here", showing that, if nothing else, he is truly a master of extreme understatement.

In one sentence, he is saying that, despite all evidence and arguments presented by those who actually DO understand these subjects, that a very, very advanced capacitor is possible, regardless of what those stupid ol' physics texts would have you believe.

But it's by no means an energy concept.

And no, there is no 21st Law of Thermodynamics. Once again, we already have more than sufficient laws to show what nonsense this whole EER thing is.

But there IS a 21st Century Law of Crackpot Behavior. Simply stated, it is, "No energy concept involving capacitance shall ever be considered as unworthy of posting over and over and over again, no matter how silly it is or how many times it has been utterly discredited."

Freud could not have seen this coming, but then in his day, there was not the multitude of diffuse (and obtuse) forms of crackpot thinking that we are forced to contend with today.

There is NO way around this Law. By that, I mean that there is apparently nothing we can do but continue to be subjected to Frank's endless postings, and take whatever meager enjoyment we can from them. There is simply no way to begin solving the "diffuse" (at best!) nature of his understanding of the subjects at hand before we would be able to put the energy behind his constant posting to work in any effective way. Say, basket weaving or bowling-ball polishing.

Just remeber that, in Frank's little world, and no matter what any of us say, this will remain "A goal......an idea......a prediction......." Crackpotism is easy, and there is no shortage of such here.

After all, we ARE talking about someone who seriously believes that, thanks SOLELY to his Marvelous Invention,

"We don't need oil. We don't need batteries. We don't need internal combustion engines. We don't need fusion. We don't need hybrids. We don't need hydrogen-powered cars. We don't need ethanol. We don't need natural gas. We don't need methane. We don't even need efficiency. We don't even need conservation."

I ask you - could one even hope for better evidence of the absurdity of this whole idea than THAT?

-Steve

--
-Steve Walz  rstevew@armory.com   ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!!  With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

Electronic electricity repository is an utterly unworkable, crackpot energy "concept" that apprently aims to entertain the readers of this group by being posted over and over and over again, despite it having been completely discredited ten ways to Christmas a long, long time ago. It has absolutely no validity at all, and is about as likely to be used for "storing electrical energy from any source" as, say, an elephant is of flying to the Moon on Cavorite wings. EER is supposedly intended to accommodate such things as electric vehicles, home heating, etc., but since it's being proposed by someone who already admits that he knows nothing at all about this field, we really, really do have to assume that it's being presented here mostly as a weak attempt at humor. The funniest example of where "EER" would utterly fail to work is the EV - Frank's crazy notion of an electric car that would run on an "ever-accumulating" power source. That is to say, this nutcase - but fortunately, no one else who possesses two brain cells to rub together, thinks that any and all sources of electrical energy -- including "diffuse sources", whatever the hell THOSE are supposed to be

-- could be collected, combined and stored in the form of capacitance. Never mind that Frank doesn't understand that energy isn't stored "in the form of capacitance" in the first place, or even the first thing about how capacitive storage actually works - this is HIS IDEA, by Gawd, and it just seems SO damned attractive (to him) that it simply MUST be right! But, wouldn't the capacitor plates be bigger than the vehicle? Well, yes they would, but that's just the first in a long, long line of both practical and theoretical objections to this absurd idea. Of course, Frank has some idea - how this idea was obtained is unclear, although we can't put recreational pharmaceuticals out of consideration at this point - that a way to increase the surface area of the plates *within a small perimeter* could be fashioned. Never mind that this wouldn't have the slightest impact on the energy density capabilities of the capacitor in question, something that can easily be demonstrated by anyone who even barely passed freshman geometry - again, this idea is one which Frank is clearly in love with, and therefore it MUST be right. And apparently, there simply isn't room within Frank's brain for troublesome trivia like basic algebra, geometry, or physics. Some might suggest that Scanning Tunneling Microscope Technology might be used to find those locations within Frank's cerebrum where such things might still reside, or we could possible even employ nanotechnology to accomplish this (although this seems like a very cruel thing to do to a nanobot) -- but clearly, to locate his understanding of these topics, we'll have to use SOME methods that could identify items roughly halfway to the molecular level. Doing this -- identifying such massive ignorance within a small perimeter

-- is the heart of any attempt to understand the source of "eer". Such a project is undoubtedly needing a commitment of funds roughly equal to that of the Human Genome Project, which admittedly is taken on faith

- and success could be many years away.

I mean, just consider the level of absurdity we're up against here. Frank believes that "the object is to configure the plates and dielectric so they all fit like Jell-O in a mold, and to make these all small in perimeter -- while yielding enormous surface area" - as if, again, that is somehow going to increase the amount of energy one could store in a given volume. We would also have to somehow understand how a statement like "it is expected that about 15 sources of renewable energy (solar, wind, wave, etc.) would be able to contribute to the 'eer pool' of stored electrical energy" has anything at all to do with the problems, no, the impossibilities, in what is being discussed here. In time, though, an examination of how stupidity and ignorance can be stored in this way could effectively replace Saturday Night Live and Comedy Central combined as a source of much of the nation's entertainment.

NOTE: EER absolutely, in no way, breaks the Second Law! It doesn't have to, since there so many OTHER laws that it would have to break to get even halfway toward being a viable concept.

If you're as tired of seeing this nonsense as some have claimed, you may want to take it up with:

Frank Lincoln snipped-for-privacy@cs.com snipped-for-privacy@aol.com snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

...but don't expect the rest of us to join you in this. We're having too much fun laughing at this stuff!

By the way, In case you hadn't noticed, Frank is VERY weak with computers. And physics. And math. And just about any other subject you'd have to understand in order to actually make a contribution in the field of energy generation and storage.

But, as he says, "this is no more than a guess from a novice" and "there are some mistakes in here", showing that, if nothing else, he is truly a master of extreme understatement.

In one sentence, he is saying that, despite all evidence and arguments presented by those who actually DO understand these subjects, that a very, very advanced capacitor is possible, regardless of what those stupid ol' physics texts would have you believe.

But it's by no means an energy concept.

And no, there is no 21st Law of Thermodynamics. Once again, we already have more than sufficient laws to show what nonsense this whole EER thing is.

But there IS a 21st Century Law of Crackpot Behavior. Simply stated, it is, "No energy concept involving capacitance shall ever be considered as unworthy of posting over and over and over again, no matter how silly it is or how many times it has been utterly discredited."

Freud could not have seen this coming, but then in his day, there was not the multitude of diffuse (and obtuse) forms of crackpot thinking that we are forced to contend with today.

There is NO way around this Law. By that, I mean that there is apparently nothing we can do but continue to be subjected to Frank's endless postings, and take whatever meager enjoyment we can from them. There is simply no way to begin solving the "diffuse" (at best!) nature of his understanding of the subjects at hand before we would be able to put the energy behind his constant posting to work in any effective way. Say, basket weaving or bowling-ball polishing.

Just remeber that, in Frank's little world, and no matter what any of us say, this will remain "A goal......an idea......a prediction......." Crackpotism is easy, and there is no shortage of such here.

After all, we ARE talking about someone who seriously believes that, thanks SOLELY to his Marvelous Invention,

"We don't need oil. We don't need batteries. We don't need internal combustion engines. We don't need fusion. We don't need hybrids. We don't need hydrogen-powered cars. We don't need ethanol. We don't need natural gas. We don't need methane. We don't even need efficiency. We don't even need conservation."

I ask you - could one even hope for better evidence of the absurdity of this whole idea than THAT?

No, the capacitor plates will not be bigger than the vehicle because smaller plates will store much more energy for the same charge. Why do you want to use big plates?

One coulomb of charge in a 1 farad capacitor will give you

1/2 joule of energy. The same charge (1 coulomb) in a 1/2 farad capacitor (which has smaller plates in the same perimeter) will be 1 joule of energy, which is twice as much as the capacitor with the bigger plates.

So, why are you using the big plates when smaller plates will work better?

-Bill

FEerguy9 ( 15 Sep 2004 07:44:56 GMT ) to sci.electronics.misc:

EER isn't.

I think the following applies to you: "Can't find yourself, lost in your lie. [...] Somehow now, you're everybody's fool"

Done.

--
Chaos Master®, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP!
"I'm so sick of speaking words that no one understands."
                  -- Evanescence, "Where Will You Go?"
Note: this e-mail address goes to /dev/null.

LENGTHS

I've never seen you explain HOW to make the plates smaller. What do you think capacitor manufacturers do all day? They are constantly trying to make capacitors smaller. If they can't do it you can't either.

Good one Frank, you got me. I should have said "big capacitances" instead of "big plates". The point is that large capacitances such as you suggest using large surface area plates, store LESS energy for the same charge than small capacitances with less plate surface area. In other words, your theory of increasing capacitance to increase energy in the same perimeter is pure Bull S@#$.

Do you have a problem with that?

I claim it isn't then.