e-mail stamps a 'comin?

N.Y. Times

February 2, 2004 By SAUL HANSELL

Should people have to buy electronic stamps to send e-mail?

Some Internet experts have long suggested that the rising tide of junk e-mail, or spam, would turn into a trickle if senders had to pay even as little as a penny for each message they sent. Such an amount might be minor for legitimate commerce and communications, but it could destroy businesses that send a million offers in hopes that

10 people will respond. The idea has been dismissed both as impractical and against the free spirit of the Internet.

Now, though, the idea of e-mail postage is getting a second look from the owners of the two largest e-mail systems in the world, Microsoft and Yahoo.

Ten days ago, Bill Gates, Microsoft's chairman, told the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, that spam would not be a problem in two years, in part because of systems that would require people to pay money to send e-mail. Yahoo, meanwhile, is quietly evaluating an e-mail postage plan being developed by Goodmail, a Silicon Valley start-up company.

"The fundamental problem with spam is there is not enough friction in sending e-mail," said Brad Garlinghouse, Yahoo's manager for communications products.

The company is intrigued by the idea of postage, Mr. Garlinghouse said, because it would force mailers to send only those offers a significant number of people might accept. "All of a sudden, spammers can't behave without regard for the Internet providers' or end users' interests, " he said.

Neither Yahoo nor Microsoft have made any commitment to charging postage, in part because the idea still faces substantial opposition among Internet users.

"Damn if I will pay postage for my nice list," said David Farber, a computer scientist at the University of Pennsylvania, who runs a mailing list on technology and policy with 30,000 recipients. He said electronic postage systems are likely to be too complex and would charge noncommercial users who should be able to send e-mail free.

"I suspect the cost of postage will start out small and it will rapidly escalate," he added.

In the meantime, the big Internet providers, including Microsoft and Yahoo, in recent weeks have renewed talks that stalled last year about creating technological standards to help identify the senders of legitimate e-mail. That way, spammers would either have to identify themselves or risk that users would discard all anonymous mail.

But for the big Internet access providers, or I.S.P.'s, the prospect of e-mail postage creating a new revenue stream that could help offset the cost of their e-mail systems is undeniably attractive.

"Sending large volumes of e-mail involve costs that are paid for by the I.S.P.'s and eventually by consumers," said Linda Beck, executive vice president for operations at EarthLink. "Should there be some sort of financial responsibility borne by the originators of these large volume programs? I think there should." E-mail between private individuals, she added, ought to remain free.

Differentiating among classes of e-mail is one of the substantial technical difficulties that e-mail postage proposals face. In wrestling with this matter, academic researchers have proposed complex stamp systems in which each e-mail recipient sets the price for a message to enter his or her in-box. Mr. Gates talked at Davos about a system that would allow users to waive charges for friends and relatives.

Goodmail, founded by Daniel T. Dreymann, an Israeli entrepreneur, is developing a system that it hopes will be easier to adopt. It proposes that only high-volume mailers pay postage at first, at a rate of a penny a message, with the money going to the e-mail recipient's Internet access provider. (The company suggests, but does not require, that the Internet providers share the payments with their users, either through rebates or by lowering monthly fees.)

The Goodmail system is designed to work even if not all senders and not all Internet providers participate. A mass e-mailer would sign up with Goodmail, buying a block of stamps - actually an encrypted code number - that it would insert in the header of each e-mail message. If the Internet provider of the recipient participates in the system, it decrypts the stamp and submits it to Goodmail. Only then is the sender's account charged a penny and the receiving I.S.P. paid the penny, minus a service fee by Goodmail for acting as a clearinghouse.

Senders do not pay for stamps that are not used, but they do pay whether an e-mail recipient reads the message or not.

Under this plan, Internet providers would still accept incoming e-mail without stamps. But that mail would be subject to the same sort of spam filters in use now, which can at times divert legitimate mail. The Internet providers would deliver all stamped mail without any filter. Goodmail does not require that stamped mail be requested by the recipient, the so-called opt-in requirement of most other anti-spam systems.

"The very notion that I have to get permission to send you a marketing message doesn't make sense and is not good public policy," said Richard Gingras, Goodmail's chief executive. Even so, he said that Goodmail would require mailers to verify their identities and to take people off their mailing lists if such a request was made.

This kind of approach would require major policy changes by Internet providers, which all ban unsolicited e-mail even if they have little ability to block it.

In fact, some experts worry that big spammers will indeed pay the postage. Charles Stiles, manager of the postmaster department at America Online, said he was concerned that such a system might restrict the wrong mail, adding, "It is the spammers who are the ones with the big pockets."

AOL is taking a different approach and is testing a system under development by the Internet Research Task Force. The system, called the Sender Permitted From, or S.P.F., creates a way for the owner of an Internet domain, like aol.com, to specify which computers are authorized to send e-mail with aol.com return addresses. That allows a recipient's e-mail system to determine whether a message being represented as coming from someone at aol.com really is from that address. Most spam being sent now uses forged return addresses.

Microsoft has been floating a similar proposal, labeled "caller ID," that could be expanded in the future to accommodate more sophisticated anti-spam approaches including Internet postage systems. Discussions are under way among the backers of S.P.F., Microsoft and others involved in e-mail to reach a compromise sender notification system.

All these proposals can run into problems because there are legitimate cases when mail sent by one domain claims to be from another. For example, online greeting-card services will send messages with the return address of the person sending the card, even though the message does not go through the sender's e-mail account.

People taking part in the discussion say that companies like greeting-card services may need to change their e-mail software to comply with the new standards.

"Every proposed scheme will break parts of the way e-mail works today," said Hans Peter Brondmo, a senior vice president of Digital Impact who has represented big e-mailers in the spam technology negotiations. The challenge, he said, is to find a system that will require as little retrofitting as possible to e-mail systems.

Reply to
Baphomet
Loading thread data ...

Actually, as little as 0.001 penny.

I have a better idea: Make it a capital offense to respond to spam. Once we weed out the idiots whose pricks are too small, profit goes to zero and spammers go into the red.

Reply to
JeffM

Darwinism is a little appreciated tool.

Ken

Reply to
Ken Taylor

I would agree with this condition:

Postage all goes to the recipient. Let nobody have a profit motive to demand, request, or encourage e-mail postage rates more than a penny or a fraction of a penny per e-mail.

E-mail postage should be regulated by Federal or international law or some worldwide agency that regulates ISPs or has the ability to get most ISPs to agree on this.

Also, business correspondence between ISPs and their customers should not require postage.

I think a penny should be more than enough to cause financial losses to scammers who claim that some millionaire died in a car crash or a plane crash or got murdered in some African nation. And I think those e-mailing me *daily* trying to sell me medications and pills and potions to enlarge body parts will be slowed down by the prospects of paying $3.65 per year to everyone they send junk e-mail to! If I keep getting 40-50 spams a day and got paid 1 cent for each one, that's $146-$183 per year. If millions of Americans get that kind of income, I'm sure the IRS would want to know about it - would ISPs delivering e-mail with postage then need to mail a 1099 to their customers every year? How about if the IRS invents the 1099-e, which gets e-mailed (with free postage)?

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Reply to
Don Klipstein

"biznesses" that send out a million emails and expect only 10 replies are *annoying* almost a million other people. They _should_ be destroyed!

Doesn't work 100%. Spammers sell their spamming services to gullible biznesses, who would dyill be suckered into paying for the services whether or not the services worked. So some spamming will still occur.

Better to shoot the spammers!

Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, th
[snip]
[snip]

That is the main problem... there is NO regulatory body, nor do ISP's cooperate. I think there are more rogue ISP's than ones with any enforced terms of service standards.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

As long as its possible to hack the system, it will be hacked. My concern is that with our present (unsecure) system the hackers will still get their mail out, and it will be up to everyone else (the owners of the hijacked mail servers) to pay the postage. Fix the security problems first to eliminate this vulnerability, then lots of the spam will go away. Brad PC Logic

Schematic entry and PCB design software

formatting link
formatting link

Reply to
AtPCLogic

Email postage has its merits. But one has to look at it from the perspective of the *free* newsletters that many of us subscribe to. Free email has kept them free, but if email is no longer free, they will likely become extinct or have to be subsidized, either by the recipients or by some agency. My guess is that most will become extinct.

Right now, I'd like to see the Penny Black system instituted.

Forget the IRS!

Reply to
Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the

Baphomet wrote: (snip)

Yeah, I heard about Micro$oft's idea several days ago. It's idiocy.

The problem starts at the spammer, so put the screws to the spammer, not to Joe Citizen. It's easy enough to identify where spam originates. Go after those boiler rooms.

IMHO, all ISP's should implement mail rejection systems modeled after AT&T WorldNet's: recipients define what addresses they _do_ want to recieve email from. Mail from all other addys gets rejected. Works for me.

Reply to
Michael

Don Klipstein wrote: (snip)

Oh great! Get govt. involved. NOT! Here in the US the Postal Service, a govt. agency, is already hurting from loss of revenue, due to email. Put the govt. - especially USPS - in charge of email fees? Conflict of interest.

Reply to
Michael

Well, agreeing to blackhole an ISP has been kind of a de facto regulatory body. MAPS.

Reply to
Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the

The USPS's losses are not from competition, but from the inability to compete, because of gov't mandated regulations.

Reply to
Watson A.Name "Watt Sun - the

Give USPS to FedEx... they'd cure the problem ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I'm a SpamCop participant, but it seems to never get better. Blackhole one ISP and another pops up :-(

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Michael -

As I understand it, it's not that easy to trace Spam; several recent worms are thought to hijack Joe Average's computer and send out Spam from these very decentralized locations. Of course, if users would update their viral signatures, this couldn't happen.

Most computer anti-spam systems do contain a "whitelist" feature. I haven't used it yet though because:

a) I'm lazy

b) I don't want to miss potential new clients

Reply to
Baphomet

Wired News - 6 Feb. '04

The entertainment industry manages to locate movie pirates, even overseas. The government supposedly tracks terrorists' conversations over the Internet. The IRS will find you if it wants to. So why the heck can't we track down spammers?

Most spam experts say we don't have to -- not directly. The experts don't agree on how spamming might end, but most say the answer isn't in sophisticated tracking technology. It's in what's dear to the hearts of spammers and the people who hate them: money.

Since it's about capital, most agree this isn't a job for Joe the Vigilante, slowing individual spammers with a barrage of high-tech attacks. It takes big money to clear out the world's inbox: money fronted by government agencies, ISPs and creditors; money paid to lawyers and bounty hunters; and money taken from companies hawking products pushed by spammers. "Spammers are using very sophisticated methods -- hijacking people's open proxies, using open relays, zombies," said Anne Mitchell, president of the Institute for Spam and Internet Public Policy. "It's very difficult to find the sender, but if you have enough resources, financial and person power, and the understanding to delve into, analyze it -- it's not impossible."

Mitchell is an advocate of the new Can-Spam Act. She's particularly fond of Section 6, which she helped write. Bypassing issues like zombie computers and elusive spammers for hire, Section 6 targets the company whose product is being sold, not the spammer.

"The vast majority of spam has a U.S. connection: the vendor. So you don't have to go to Romania to find the spammer," Mitchell said. "It's easier to find the vendors. When they are on the hook legally, they are all too happy to point the finger at the spammer."

Paul Graham, the man who introduced the Bayesian filter to spam fighting, agreed. "You can't catch the spammer in real time anymore; it's being sent by some robot he established earlier, and he's long gone," Graham said. "Go after the money. The fear of being attacked legally will make advertisers cough up the spammer."

Graham also said the ball is in the court of the credit card companies.

"All spammers selling something are processing the transactions through credit cards. Put pressure on Visa to cancel the transaction and spammers would be stopped cold," Graham said. "So what if it's a Taiwanese Internet pharmacy? Reach them though their Visa merchant account."

Michael Goodman, staff attorney for the Federal Trade Commission, says that going after the advertiser is a route the FTC will take with the Can-Spam Act. But he says there are other sections of the law enabling the FTC to prosecute vendors in addition to locating and taking criminal action against spammers.

More importantly, Goodman says, spam fighting finally ranks in the eyes of federal budget planners.

"It's one of the highest priorities of the Bureau of Consumer Protection," said Goodman. "The top three are spam, fraud in general and the new privacy FACTA law."

Some say killing spam is a job for Internet service providers as much as it is for the government, if not more so.

"If someone broke into the phone system and rang everybody's phone off the hook, you'd say it's a problem for the phone company," said Barry Shein, president of ISP The World.

"You are annoyed, but their equipment is being usurped. You would accept that. With the Internet, individuals don't like it because they feel they are the victims," Shein added. "But (an ISP) can show hundreds of thousands of violations and put $10,000 on the table to hire a lawyer.

"What's going to get spammers in the end is hurting the people with the pocketbooks."

Reply to
Baphomet

They would just drop it, and break it!

--
We now return you to our normally scheduled programming.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

FedEx?? I've *never* had FedEx damage a shipment. UPS runs at 50%. USPS, only ship what you want to lose.

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | |

formatting link
| 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Reply to
Jim Thompson

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.