Re: What ever happened to service manuals?

I'm afraid we are going to have to face the fact that not everything is economically repairable. The bottom line is that in many cases, it costs much less (in labor and materials) to make a new camera (or whatever) than to repair an old one. This is not a malicious practice of evil business, it's just a fact of life.

Back in 1950, when radio repair was in its heyday, the people who assembled radios at the factory used the same techniques as the repairman (soldering irons, pliers, screwdrivers, etc.). Repair was easy because manufacturing was not automated -- it used the same hand-tool techniques.

In 1975, in the printed-circuit-board era, assembly was automated but hand repair was still relatively easy. Most of the individual components hadn't changed much since the hand-tool era.

Today we're dealing with custom ICs (which you can't repair inside of) and extremely dense surface-mount circuit boards with tiny, unidentifiable components. Repair is difficult.

Admittedly, we all feel sad when we encounter things that could have been repairable and aren't, but...

Should a customer choose a $400 camera that is repairable over a $100 camera (with equal performance) that is not? I don't think so.

And I certainly don't want the repair industry ganging up on the manufacturers and forcing them to do away with the $100 non-repairable camera, forcing everybody to pay the higher price.

In my opinion, the repair industry got spoiled in the 1950s, when everybody had primitive TV sets that ate vacuum tubes at the rate of one every three or four weeks. Nowadays, a TV lasts maybe 8 years without repair, and when it fails, the cause of the failure is usually hard to find. This tells me that all the components are much more reliable, and they are also much better matched (to last the same length of time). This is supposed to be worse? Sorry -- when I indulge in nostalgia, I don't go *that* far.

(Several points... some readers may wish to skip down...)

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Right... I see nothing wrong with that. Do things the most efficient way.

support

I don't see how you can fault consumers for wanting a lower price. What should they be wanting?

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If this were "planned obsolescence" or just fashion, I'd be against it. But it's mostly genuinely rapid technological progress. HDTV is coming in. Cell phones are moving to different bands (my next one will be international). Digital cameras are getting tremendously better year by year.

(or even in the US, with robotic assembly)

In

Now *that* is sad.

I am very much in favor of technological literacy, i.e., people should know what goes on in the machines that they rely on. I'm in favor of do-it-yourself repair when it's not unduly dangerous.

switch

pity

Did your company win or lose the case? It sound like that dolt would have managed to burn his house down with or without the switch!

I wonder if he is thinking about car service manuals? There might be some requirement there, though the manufacturers have managed to reduce the information content significantly and replace it with flow charts. :(

| Safety concerns totally trump repairability. Under no circumstances will a | company legally expose themselves by telling you anything about how to muck | about in the innards of their product.

Sony used to be very good about this, selling service manuals for anything to anybody. I have service manuals for every Sony product I've owned (TVs, VCRs, older DSS receivers, etc.) and they actually have schematics. I also had no trouble (though it was slightly more complicated than with Sony) getting a service manual for a Pioneer LaserDisc player and (I think) some Panasonic VCRs. Recently I was unable to get a Sony service manual for a newer DSS receiver, though, and I'm afraid this may be a trend. The sales rep seemed rather puzzled about it and was supposed to do some research and get back to me, but he didn't. I think the problem may be more the DMCA and friends than injury liability concerns. The current legislative environment effectively requires a lot of consumer electronics to be tamper-proof black boxes in order to protect the new rights of content providers.

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

economically repairable. The bottom line is that in many cases, it costs much less (in labor and materials) to make a new camera (or whatever) than to repair an old one. This is not a malicious practice of evil business, it's just a fact of life.

True, but the owner (me) should have the chance to fix it and I don't charge myself $70/hour. I work for free!! B^)

On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 19:55:13 GMT, "Fred" put finger to keyboard and composed:

Yeah, that's what happens over here as well. It's about time the useless Greenies got off their backsides and pushed for legislation in this area. IMO, there should be no excuse for any manufacturer not to make service manuals available in paperless format via the Internet. And that means making them available to everybody, not just their business partners. I detest the condescending, patronising attitude of manufacturers who pretend that by withholding technical information they are protecting unqualified consumers from themselves. That should not be their choice, nor their responsibility, it should be mine.

- Franc Zabkar

charge

Understood. That's what Sam Goldwasser is for :) :)

The documentation that we wish for may simply not exist, because even at the factory, they don't do component-level repair.

BTW, I know I'm "boring and academic." That's what they pay me for.

Boring and academic signature:

VERY GOOD POINT about it being a "green" (environmental) issue -- the best way to keep stuff out of landfills is to fix it! The manufacturers don't necessarily have service manuals, but they have *some* documentation, which could be made available. Something about clearing up the safety liability is another thing such legislation could accomplish.

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NEC monitors have always been built with a critical audience in mind. The original NEC Multisync was clearly built with the idea that all the rivals would examine it closely and envy it. (We used one of them something like

A good reason for the lack of service manuals for *some* products is that the makers don't want us to see what corners they've cut!

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Zackly! Like the old Samsung b/w monitors back in the '80s, before anyone had heard of that Korean company. They used a few ohm resistor in the V supply line, instead of a fuse. Whenever the computer fed it the wrong horiz freq, the resistor would act just like a fuse, and a column of smoke would come out of it! I finally just ran a pair of wires off the PC board and put an inline fuse in each monitor. Worked just fine, and it was easily changed.

In comparison, the old Ball Bros monitors would just sit there, screeching, without a trace of smoke. One thing, I have to admit, was that it got the people to turn it off when they saw the smoke! 'Cept if there was no one around...

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One thought about the latter. In some equipment, they put a rectifier diode across the battery with the cathode to positive, so that if the batteries are put in backwards, the diode will short them out and save the equipment from being damged. Well you may have such a diode, and the backwards batteries may hav damaged it so that it's drawing serious current and draining the batteries.

Yesterday, one of the ladies at work came into the shop and asked me for an AA cell, needed for the new wall clock she had just bought. I gave her one, and what'd she do? Just shoved it into the holder on the back, not even watching which way it was supposed to go in. And of course she put it in backwards. Well, DUH, after she turned it around the right way, it started working. Murphy's Law applies. :-P

I have had very good luck locating specialist remote control vendors on the Web. I think one of them is called Mr. Remote.

You're welcome!

Typical self-centered, argumentative Usenet analysis by an anonymous user. You find the comments academic, pointless and boring because they do not support your prejudices and you cannot comprehend them.

And yes, your camera is still broken.

Ed

Apparently, they can. However, they do appear to have a dexterity problem. They also don't realize that two of the groups they are spraying with electrons do not exist.

Jack, can you figure out which two groups exist only in your imagination?

Ed wb6wsn

charge

And I'm sure you're worth it! Actually, look on this as a golden opportunity to learn something about repair, and yourself. Your camera is broken now, how much worse can you make it?

Ed wb6wsn

take

That's really impressive analysis skills, considering that you forgot about the shock hazard of the flash circuitry and the energy content of the batteries.

And you're still posting to those two imaginary groups.

Ed wb6wsn

Really worse:-) Try the phrase: the next post will be OK in the washing mashine at ? degrees??????

Hyuk... hyuk.... TOUCHE!!!!! B:^) (You guys are a fun group, I'll have to say! Email is so easily misunderstood, I have to start putting smiley in to be sure no one is insulted -- not the intention, by the way.

Actually, you're absolutely right about the opportunity. Since Olympus will fix anything for $150, I might as well root around in there and see what I can find. From talking to others the best guess right now is it's in the power circuitry. I'll post what I learn.

Actually I'm trying to get my camera fixed -- not that interested in POINTLESS COMMENTARY on this and that. Some folks have been great help, and others, less than helpful.

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote

Thanks. I'll check those diodes. I know that the batteries aren't being drained in this case, though, because the "dead batt" warning comes on upon the first attempt to take a photo. Then, if I remove those batteries and put them in a flashlight, they work like new.

Good thing these ladies don't work at the local nuclear reactor, eh.