Flash retention in uC at higher temps, experience?

Yes, I did. I gather you want to do that.

My place is appraised at $850k (down there, I know that is just a shack but up here it's 5000 sq ft of quality, showy home and lots of acres of prime hilltop land) and my property taxes are $4400/year. Which is kind of high, I admit. It's the income taxes you'll probably hate. It's a graduated rate, but I think the top rate (which applies to most engineers, without even asking) is 9%. However, no sales tax.

I did that on purpose. I didn't want to make it seem too inviting. Actually, I've come to appreciate the constant press of low clouds overhead and the slippery feel of moist moss as you carefully walk across your one year old, rotting wooden deck.

Jon

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan
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and they also have a 140'C rated variant....

They do seem to be expanding use of Digikey.

Digikey shows 4,153 Infineon items, of which 275 are Microcontrollers, and of those 46 are XC8xx series.

[Just not yet the nice looking 20 pin XC864, or 64K XC878's, or the Wireless Control ones above ..... too new... - sigh...]

-jg

Reply to
Jim Granville

Our family grows/raises most of the food we consume. It's nice knowing where it all comes from and how it was treated and prepared.

I don't have all that within walking distance. It's a 5 minute drive to the nearest hospital, for example, and 20 minutes drive to an international airport (PDX.) But we do have a grocery store (not a supermarket), a pub, a restaurant or two, and many, many parks all within easy walking distance of home.

Okay. I'm having fun. I hope you don't mind if I post a few links to pictures.

These pictures are from my own land, showing paths that proceed from my home into the wooded parts of my property:

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That will give you a flavor for the flora.

Mt. Hood rises up from sea level to about 11,300' and is about 15 miles from my home. Here is how it looks from a lake that is very close to my home (in the summer):

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This water fall (among literally more than a hundred within a short distance) is about a 15 minute drive from home.. over 600 feet:

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The Columbia River flows by Mt. Hood's northern base. This viewpoint is actually closer to my home than the above falls -- about a 10 minute drive:

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All of the above is in relatively easy bicycling distance.

In Oregon, it is illegal to own or fence or otherwise control coastal land. Some 400 miles of coastline is public land. The only state of the USA that does this, I think. In any case, here is one photo of what our coast partly looks like:

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Jon

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan

applications must live in plastic boxes and there is always a

someone fires up a cell phone and the GSM ones can be

It will not be a Direct Flash Cell effect, but more likely a Software crash, that jumps into a Flash Write routine.

This is one reason why many Automotive designs insist on a FLASH_ENABLE pin, so that a simple SW crash CANNOT cause un-recoverable damage.

We have some designs that will NOT use IAP Flash controllers, for exactly the same reason.

Adding IAP is a convenient feature, but it also can be a point of weakness.

-jg

Reply to
Jim Granville

Not quite: The latest Mar 2008 data for the FM25H20 2MBit FRAM, (40MHz) specs 10^14 Wd/Wr, (which I guess is per Byte?).

Most data application will be well under that, but it could start to bother an execute-from-flash design, sitting in a tight loop.

These parts have very Niche-prices, around 20x that of vanilla flash, so you really have to need their better features :)

-jg

Reply to
Jim Granville

I'm working with an 89lpc952 (Phillips/NXT) which comes preprogrammed with a bootloader in the top Flash sector. There's a flag that, when set, will cause execution to start there instead of the normal reset vector.

You're free to overwrite the bootloader with something else, so perhaps that facility could be used for one side of the flipflop?

Of course, the '952 also has IAP which I don't think can be disabled...

--
Gordon S. Hlavenka           http://www.crashelectronics.com
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Reply to
Gordon S. Hlavenka

And it's well known that (western) Oregonians don't tan, they rust.

Reply to
Everett M. Greene

Interesting. Their lower density parts like FM25L512 quote unlimited read/write cycles. Maybe endurance issues have arisen again at finer geometries?

For small sizes the price premium over EE is small. I use them for the security of a faster write (the memory is vulnerable for a smaller window).

Robert

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Reply to
Robert Adsett

With all other variables constant, a reduced rate of rise means a lower end-point of thermal burden. Light colours are preferable where reflective surfaces are not possible.

Changing the material, or material grade to something that is not clear/opaque to infrared can also have an effect. A paint overcoat rather than internal pigment (~of plastic). Adding irregular surface finish or stippling/ridging may also have a beneficial effect.

Failing that, a sacrificial face-plate on the most exposed surfaces, decoupled physically from the case itself.

RL

Reply to
legg

;)

I just spent a nice day today at a fly-in for nitro and electric helicopter models. It was a nice day of about 64-67F and I spent about 5 hours in the 45-degree N latitude sun. Horrible sunburn I'm sitting here suffering from, right now! (I get 2nd degree burns in 15 minutes in LA, by the way. I need the cloud cover!)

Jon

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan

It does looks terrific and with all the woodpeckers squirrles and whatnot it sounds like a paradise for the camera-hunter I have become lately. But what about winter? How long/harsh is it typically? (Not last winter, I guess we are all still expecting it to quite go away in mid June... :-) ).

Didi

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Reply to
Didi

Or they insist that flash-write routines simply don't exist in the application. A routine that's not physically present in the chip can't accidentally be run. Nice and simple, really.

They only get uploaded into the controller RAM at flash-update time.

Reply to
Hans-Bernhard Bröker

Yep, I thought that was the real cause. I think Joerg pointed out GSM phones can be especially nasty with their pulsed carrier.

100W VHF at 6-feet away should be relatively easy to counter with proper pcb layout and ferrite beads and RF blocking caps, but designer probably never expected strong rf fields. Even worse would be if the write protection fuses were not set.

so that a simple SW crash CANNOT cause un-recoverable

I suspect the programmed fuses that should prevent writing over flash section may not always work. External pin is probably more reliable.

M
Reply to
TheM

Ok, still two orders of magnitude improvement. The bad part is it applies to reading as well :(

The 64K I2C parts were 1-2 euro AFAIR. 4M freescale part is another story. I like them for speed and the fact they can't be destroyed by runaway software, at least in I2C variant.

M
Reply to
TheM

It a similar income tax structure here in CA with the dems wanting more and more and more. Luckily we now have a 2/3 majority req for tax raise, thanks to the aforementioned Prop 13. We also have a sales tax on top of that and it still ain't enough :-(

However, you may just be lucky that you bought your house at low cost. I've heard people retiring to Oregon and after buying a $400k house they got socked with an $8k (!) tax bill. Oh no, not me. One really has to watch it these days.

In winter it's the same here. We are on a hill and often "in" the clouds. Our Rottweiler used to bark them away upon approach but he gave up on that. We found PreservaWood deck stain to hold up pretty well.

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Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

Do it again but "in stock only". Makes it dwindle down to 1209 parts. IMHO the guys there need to learn about marketing.

Try to get samples out of their Bay Area office. Did that for a FET a while ago. It took about 10 phone calls to get one call back. Told them I'd pay whatever it takes. Nada, zilch. That taught me a lesson :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

That would be a start, as long as the device can still be programmed after you've chucked the bootloader.

IAP can increase the risk of flash corruption but not being familiar with the NXP devices I don't know by how much. Nowadays most uC can write flash from within a application though.

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Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

Though not directly related,

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is interesting. (data retention at 450C)

Reply to
Ian Stirling

That's the Irish/Swedish genes in you I guess. Mine are mostly German but I don't get sunburn easily, I just become darker and darker. Hmm, maybe I've got some other genes in me that nobody remembers ...

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Reply to
Joerg

The climate here is quite moderate, generally. Winters can be like this in the higher elevations (I'm at about 900' above sea level), but this is rarer at the lower elevations in western Oregon:

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That above picture last happened near my property in winter of 2003. But I've not seen the like since then.

We used to get a silver thaw in the lower elevations near Portland almost every other year or every year. I haven't seen one since 1981, though. And Mt. Hood has lost close to 50% of its glacier mass balance (gleaned from personal discussions with two climate researchers -- one who studies mass balance of the Washington state glaciers and the other who personally treks through Mt. Hood every year gathering surface ice/snow data) in the last 30-50 years. (If I recall, there are 11 significant glaciers on Mt. Hood.) I have lived here since 1955 and my own experience concurs with this trend. So the winters in the lower elevations of the Willamette valley, in my opinion, have become less severe in terms of ice/snow. However, I think, precipitation seems to have remained similar overall. Just the distribution seems to be perhaps a little more rain in the winters and less in the summers.

In short, you'd find it a paradise for photography pretty much all year 'round.

Yes, it's been weird here, this year. There seems to have been a significant change in the wind patterns over the north polar area -- a shift in the cyclonal center of mass. Winds and water currents drove sea ice along the edge of the Russian Arctic (Novaya Zemlya) and a sort of polynya emerged a bit early off the Canadian arctic coast between the archipelago, the Alaska border and Baffin Bay. This year seems to be unusual to me in these respects and perhaps may have played a part in the somewhat unusual (record breaking, here) weather patterns we've had in the month of May.

By the way, that polynya I mentioned and other smaller polynyas suggest furthering of the thin and fairly weak annual ice of late. This is consistent with the fact that the relative fraction of multi-year ice in the central Arctic has plummeted, roughly since the mid-1990s. However, it also seems that this year's first year ice (brine pocketed) is in an unusual location that may help it survive better than usually expected -- much of it is farther north than usual so it might be less vulnerable to melt allowing time for the brine to expel and the ice to firm up somewhat. Still, while having first year ice further north means that ice may have a better chance to continue a while longer that shouldn't be read as good news -- it means that first year ice is forming closer to the pole which is generally not good big picture news and the overall direction of decline there continues.

As more of the polar ocean becomes exposed to solar insolation, which has quite a different albedo, I expect continued significant and interesting changes in the energy transfer mechanisms for some years.

Jon

Reply to
Jonathan Kirwan

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