mutual capacitance?

You can do it yourself on earth by swinging the end of a cable around in a vertical circle. If the cable is connected to an oscilloscope, it will show a low-frequency sine wave. Do it outside, inside buildings there is hardly any static E-field. And you can also just swing around a 1:10 voltage probe at the end of its cable with a piece of extra wire fixed into its signal clamp. (The piece of extra wire is the actual antenna, the probe just conveniently connects to the oscilloscope).

It will show that there is E-field outside..

-- Jos

"John Larkin" napisal w wiadomosci news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Yes. But it say that on the Earth surface is the excess of electrons.

Solar wind consists of ions, electrons and dust. Ions and electrons are plasma. In plasma all bodies have the excess of electrons.

Your "surface field" is weather dependent. You know that: "When I was a kid, I used to measure the voltage on open-wire antennas, with a super high impedance voltmeter, and watch as clouds passed over, and lightning changed the charges". John. S*

>

| >"John Larkin" wrote in message | >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:31:55 +0100, "Androcles" | >| wrote: | >| | >| >

| >| >"John Larkin" wrote in | >message | >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:38:11 +0100, "Androcles" | >| >| wrote: | >| >| | >| >| >

| >| >| >"John Larkin" wrote in | >| >message | >| >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 16:51:00 +0100, "Androcles" | >| >| >| wrote: | >| >| >| | >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >"John Larkin" wrote in | >| >| >message | >| >| >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 14:55:21 +0100, "Androcles" | >| >| >| >| wrote: | >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >"John Larkin" wrote | >in | >| >| >| >message | >| >| >| >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| >| >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:30:28 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek" | >| >| >| >| >| wrote: | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| > "John Larkin"

| >| >napisal | >| >| >w | >| >| >| >| >| >wiadomosci news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| >| >| >> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:49:17 -0700 (PDT), RichD | >| >| >| >| >| >> wrote: | >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >>>A network theorem states that every circuit has a | >| >| >| >| >| >>>dual; voltage sources become current sources, etc. | >| >| >| >| >| >>>

| >| >| >| >| >| >>>But, what about mutual inductance? Why is there no | >| >| >| >| >| >>>mutual capacitance? By symmetry, shouldn't a 'mutual | >| >| >| >| >| >>>capacitor' exist, linking electric flux? | >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >> There is dispute about the capacitance between the earth | >and | >| >the | >| >| >| >moon. | >| >| >| >| >| >> Some people claim about 3 uF, some claim about 160 uF. I | >think | >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >| >> first is the "mutual" or 3-terminal capacitance, and the | >| >second | >| >| >is | >| >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >| >> 2-terminal capacitance. | >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >> 3 uF | >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >> earth--------||---------moon | >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >> ___ ___ | >| >| >| >| >| >> ___ 710 uF ___ 193 uF | >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >> +----------------------+----- universe | >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >> John | >| >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| >The 710uF is calculated for the hydraulic analogy. For this | >| >value | >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >| >Earth's potential would be 10^9V. In reality no such voltage. | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| Explain please. | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| >In space are ions and electrons. Each body is negatively | >| >charged. | >| >| >It | >| >| >| >is | >| >| >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >| >plasma physics. | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| It's claimed in many places that earth is electrically | >neutral. I | >| >| >| >| >| don't entirely buy that; I'd like to see it measured. | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| But there's no fundamental reason why a sphere this big, well | >| >| >| >| >| insulated in vacuum, couldn't be charged to a gigavolt. | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| John | >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >Is that a positive or a negative gigavolt? | >| >| >| >| >"Give me but one firm spot on which to stand, and I will move | >the | >| >| >| >earth." -- | >| >| >| >| >Archimedes. | >| >| >| >| >Voltage, like motion, is relative. | >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| Assume the universe is neutral, which it probably is. | >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >No, I don't make assumptions that I can't support. | >| >| >| | >| >| >| You don't have to support assumptions, you just assume them. | >| >| >| | >| >| >Chocolate eggs are probably laid by the Easter Bunny. | >| >| >Don't argue, just assume it. | >| >| >

| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| A satellite in | >| >| >| >| elliptical orbit around Earth, or one doing a flyby, could | >measure | >| >| >| >| field gradients and measure Earth's potential against the | >universe. | >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >Bizarre, you'll be claiming it can weigh itself when it's | >weightless | >| >| >next. | >| >| >| >What's the potential of the universe? | >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| | >| >| >| Define it to be zero. It would still be interesting to measure any | >| >| >| field gradient around Earth and anything else a satellite can sweep | >| >| >| past. We do routinely measure magnetic fields. | >| >| >| | >| >| >There already is a non-zero gravitational field from Earth, Moon | >| >| >and Sun, and that is the weakest force acting on the satellite. | >| >| >

| >| >| >

| >| >| >

| >| >| >| I guess | >| >| >

| >| >| >I'm not interested in your bizarre guesses; these are science | >| >| >newsgroups, not sci-fi newsgroups. | >| >| | >| >| Oh, I get it, science should never consider things that aren't already | >| >| established science. | >| >

| >| >Science is the observation, investigation and explanation of | >| >natural phenomena, in that order. And no, you don't "get it". | >| >Nor does anyone that guesses or makes unfounded assumptions. | >| >Science should never consider things that are fiction. | >| >

| >| | >| What I suggested is that the electric field gradients around the earth | >| would be interesting. What's wrong with being interested in stuff like | >| this? Measuring this would certainly not be science fiction. | >| | >

| >What you suggested was "there's no fundamental reason why a | >sphere [the Earth] this big, well insulated in vacuum, couldn't be | >charged to a gigavolt." Measuring this would certainly be sci-fi, | >because if I took a CRT TV to the Moon, took away the glass | >and left only a light skeleton to support the shadowmask, | >phosphors, anode, cathode, grid, heater, and deflection coils it | >would still function. | >

| >

| | Imagine a satellite rotating at some moderate rate. Extend two wires | out, to form a dipole antenna. If there's an electric field gradient, | a sine wave will be induced into the antanna, synchronous to the | rotation. Detect this synchronously to the rotation rate. Gradients in | the nanovolts/meter range should be measurable. Other interesting | signals, like sloshing solar wind potentials, would no doubt be noted. | Maybe some of this has been done. | | Vibrating probe electric field sensors work this way. |

You are not even aware of Faraday's law, curl E = -dB/dt, or how a generator works. Your hypothetical rotating dipole would detect a magnetic field, not an electrostatic one. An interesting compass dipole should detect that just by no doubt pointing. Imagine that.

| >

| >| When I was a kid, I used to measure the voltage on open-wire antennas, | >| with a super high impedance voltmeter, and watch as clouds passed | >| over, and lightning changed the charges. It was cool. I did VLF | >| atmospheric whistler stuff, too. Some very strange electric stuff goes | >| on at planetary scales. | >| | >| People have recently, accidentally, discovered antimatter beams and | >| gamma ray bursts shooting into space from thunderstorms. Suggesting | >| that would have got you laughed at not so long ago. | >

| >

| >Yes, and it has me laughing now. Are you sure you don't mean anti-photon | >gigavolt anti-torpedoes? | | | OK, laugh at this: | |

| Bwhahahahahahaha! "You MAY BE witnessing anti-matter in the making." Bwhahahahahahaha! Bwhahahahahahaha! Bwhahahahahahaha! Are you sure you don't mean anti-photon gigavolt anti-torpedoes?

| | >>What you suggested was "there's no fundamental reason why a | >>sphere [the Earth] this big, well insulated in vacuum, couldn't be | >>charged to a gigavolt." Measuring this would certainly be sci-fi, | >>because if I took a CRT TV to the Moon, took away the glass | >>and left only a light skeleton to support the shadowmask, | >>phosphors, anode, cathode, grid, heater, and deflection coils it | >>would still function. | >>

| >>

| >

| >Imagine a satellite rotating at some moderate rate. Extend two wires | >out, to form a dipole antenna. If there's an electric field gradient, | >a sine wave will be induced into the antanna, synchronous to the | >rotation. Detect this synchronously to the rotation rate. Gradients in | >the nanovolts/meter range should be measurable. Other interesting | >signals, like sloshing solar wind potentials, would no doubt be noted. | >Maybe some of this has been done. | >

| >Vibrating probe electric field sensors work this way. | >

| | Oops, it's been done: | |

| | | | apparently a lot. | | John

Someone detected the Earth's magnetic field? You should tell a sailor like Columbus about it, he might find that useful knowing which way is North. He could launch a satellite to tell if his compass is working properly, apparently a lot.

True, but the comment about 'no resistivity' still stands. When you contaminate the vacuum with some matter (electrons, for instance) it's really not a vacuum any more. As an insulator, vacuum would be perfect if not for cosmic rays, radioactivity, plasma ion sources (like stars)... The hypothetical sphere floating in vacuum will discharge due to photocurrent (the classic photocell is just a charged vacuum capacitor, after all).

We're talking about electric fields, not magnetic fields. They are different. Look it up.

The preferred detector seems to be a couple of conductive spheres, out on the ends of some extended booms. That makes sense, to move the most pickup capacitance as far out as possible. Better than a simple dipole.

John

Totally wrong. Zero loop area.

An interesting

I should believe you, and not NASA?

No thanks.

John

| >"John Larkin" wrote in message | >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:42:23 -0700, John Larkin | >| wrote: | >| | >| >On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:16:23 +0100, "Androcles" | >| > wrote: | >| >

| >| | >| >>What you suggested was "there's no fundamental reason why a | >| >>sphere [the Earth] this big, well insulated in vacuum, couldn't be | >| >>charged to a gigavolt." Measuring this would certainly be sci-fi, | >| >>because if I took a CRT TV to the Moon, took away the glass | >| >>and left only a light skeleton to support the shadowmask, | >| >>phosphors, anode, cathode, grid, heater, and deflection coils it | >| >>would still function. | >| >>

| >| >>

| >| >

| >| >Imagine a satellite rotating at some moderate rate. Extend two wires | >| >out, to form a dipole antenna. If there's an electric field gradient, | >| >a sine wave will be induced into the antanna, synchronous to the | >| >rotation. Detect this synchronously to the rotation rate. Gradients in | >| >the nanovolts/meter range should be measurable. Other interesting | >| >signals, like sloshing solar wind potentials, would no doubt be noted. | >| >Maybe some of this has been done. | >| >

| >| >Vibrating probe electric field sensors work this way. | >| >

| >| | >| Oops, it's been done: | >| | >|

| >| | >| | >| | >| apparently a lot. | >| | >| John | >

| >Someone detected the Earth's magnetic field? You should tell a | >sailor like Columbus about it, he might find that useful knowing | >which way is North. | >He could launch a satellite to tell if his compass is working | >properly, apparently a lot. | >

| >

| | We're talking about electric fields, not magnetic fields. They are | different. Look it up.

We are talking about moving a conductor that has a sinusoidal voltage induced in it. That's what happens in a generator. LOOK IT UP!

| The preferred detector seems to

I've had enough of your "seems to" and "maybe." Look up some basic physics before you preach nonsense.

| >"John Larkin" wrote in message | >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 02:16:23 +0100, "Androcles" | >| wrote: | >| | >| >

| >| >"John Larkin" wrote in | >message | >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:31:55 +0100, "Androcles" | >| >| wrote: | >| >| | >| >| >

| >| >| >"John Larkin" wrote in | >| >message | >| >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:38:11 +0100, "Androcles" | >| >| >| wrote: | >| >| >| | >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >"John Larkin" wrote in | >| >| >message | >| >| >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 16:51:00 +0100, "Androcles" | >| >| >| >| wrote: | >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >"John Larkin" wrote | >in | >| >| >| >message | >| >| >| >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| >| >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 14:55:21 +0100, "Androcles" | >| >| >| >| >| wrote: | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| >"John Larkin" | >wrote | >| >in | >| >| >| >| >message | >| >| >| >| >| >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| >| >| >| On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:30:28 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek" | >| >| >| >| >| >| wrote: | >| >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| >| > "John Larkin" | >

| >| >| >napisal | >| >| >| >w | >| >| >| >| >| >| >wiadomosci | >news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com... | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:49:17 -0700 (PDT), RichD | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> wrote: | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >>>A network theorem states that every circuit has a | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>>dual; voltage sources become current sources, etc. | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>>

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >>>But, what about mutual inductance? Why is there no | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>>mutual capacitance? By symmetry, shouldn't a 'mutual | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>>capacitor' exist, linking electric flux? | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >> There is dispute about the capacitance between the earth | >| >and | >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >moon. | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> Some people claim about 3 uF, some claim about 160 uF. I | >| >think | >| >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> first is the "mutual" or 3-terminal capacitance, and the | >| >| >second | >| >| >| >is | >| >| >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> 2-terminal capacitance. | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >> 3 uF | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >> earth--------||---------moon | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> ___ ___ | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> ___ 710 uF ___ 193 uF | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> | | | >| >| >| >| >| >| >> +----------------------+----- universe | >| >| >| >| >| >| >>

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >> John | >| >| >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >The 710uF is calculated for the hydraulic analogy. For | >this | >| >| >value | >| >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >| >| >Earth's potential would be 10^9V. In reality no such | >voltage. | >| >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >| Explain please. | >| >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| >| >In space are ions and electrons. Each body is negatively | >| >| >charged. | >| >| >| >It | >| >| >| >| >is | >| >| >| >| >| >the | >| >| >| >| >| >| >plasma physics. | >| >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >| It's claimed in many places that earth is electrically | >| >neutral. I | >| >| >| >| >| >| don't entirely buy that; I'd like to see it measured. | >| >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >| But there's no fundamental reason why a sphere this big, | >well | >| >| >| >| >| >| insulated in vacuum, couldn't be charged to a gigavolt. | >| >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| >| John | >| >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| >Is that a positive or a negative gigavolt? | >| >| >| >| >| >"Give me but one firm spot on which to stand, and I will move | >| >the | >| >| >| >| >earth." -- | >| >| >| >| >| >Archimedes. | >| >| >| >| >| >Voltage, like motion, is relative. | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >| Assume the universe is neutral, which it probably is. | >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >No, I don't make assumptions that I can't support. | >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| You don't have to support assumptions, you just assume them. | >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >Chocolate eggs are probably laid by the Easter Bunny. | >| >| >| >Don't argue, just assume it. | >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| >| A satellite in | >| >| >| >| >| elliptical orbit around Earth, or one doing a flyby, could | >| >measure | >| >| >| >| >| field gradients and measure Earth's potential against the | >| >universe. | >| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| >Bizarre, you'll be claiming it can weigh itself when it's | >| >weightless | >| >| >| >next. | >| >| >| >| >What's the potential of the universe? | >| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >| Define it to be zero. It would still be interesting to measure | >any | >| >| >| >| field gradient around Earth and anything else a satellite can | >sweep | >| >| >| >| past. We do routinely measure magnetic fields. | >| >| >| >| | >| >| >| >There already is a non-zero gravitational field from Earth, Moon | >| >| >| >and Sun, and that is the weakest force acting on the satellite. | >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >| I guess | >| >| >| >

| >| >| >| >I'm not interested in your bizarre guesses; these are science | >| >| >| >newsgroups, not sci-fi newsgroups. | >| >| >| | >| >| >| Oh, I get it, science should never consider things that aren't | >already | >| >| >| established science. | >| >| >

| >| >| >Science is the observation, investigation and explanation of | >| >| >natural phenomena, in that order. And no, you don't "get it". | >| >| >Nor does anyone that guesses or makes unfounded assumptions. | >| >| >Science should never consider things that are fiction. | >| >| >

| >| >| | >| >| What I suggested is that the electric field gradients around the earth | >| >| would be interesting. What's wrong with being interested in stuff like | >| >| this? Measuring this would certainly not be science fiction. | >| >| | >| >

| >| >What you suggested was "there's no fundamental reason why a | >| >sphere [the Earth] this big, well insulated in vacuum, couldn't be | >| >charged to a gigavolt." Measuring this would certainly be sci-fi, | >| >because if I took a CRT TV to the Moon, took away the glass | >| >and left only a light skeleton to support the shadowmask, | >| >phosphors, anode, cathode, grid, heater, and deflection coils it | >| >would still function. | >| >

| >| >

| >| | >| Imagine a satellite rotating at some moderate rate. Extend two wires | >| out, to form a dipole antenna. If there's an electric field gradient, | >| a sine wave will be induced into the antanna, synchronous to the | >| rotation. Detect this synchronously to the rotation rate. Gradients in | >| the nanovolts/meter range should be measurable. Other interesting | >| signals, like sloshing solar wind potentials, would no doubt be noted. | >| Maybe some of this has been done. | >| | >| Vibrating probe electric field sensors work this way. | >| | >

| >You are not even aware of Faraday's law, curl E = -dB/dt, or | >how a generator works. Your hypothetical rotating dipole would | >detect a magnetic field, not an electrostatic one. | | Totally wrong. Zero loop area.

Go away, dipshit.

*plonk*

Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated; you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive, unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.

Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are left to decide which is most applicable to you.

There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill- filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the same spot and repeat the process eternally.

This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry or crackpot theories without challenge.

You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I purchase a new computer or hard drive. Update: the last clearance was 19/08/10. Some individuals have been restored to the list.

I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose of this message is to encourage others to kill-file fuckwits like you.

I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't, damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and f*ck off.

Superconductors have no resistivity. Vacuum has no conductivity.

When you

stars)...

Sure, an imperfect vacuum isn't a perfect insulator. But a real high vacuum comes darn close.

John

'67, as I recall; I'd buy his book on waves, for sure. anyway, I guess, it is well-known that most of the current in a wire, is on the (cylindrical) surface of it.

"1treePetrifiedForestLane" napisal w wiadomosci news: snipped-for-privacy@x38g2000pri.googlegroups.com...

What waves are in the book. Electric or EM? S*

DC is electric?... it only treats DC as a special case, analuysis is all complex, all the time, which saves a lot of foolishness (although, really, it should be done with quaternions, but I have no idea, what might be aided with octonions .-)

that was '57, also.