Funny, I posted about how that 3X-4X efficiency was just plain false, because even farm diesels can feasibly be built to 50% efficiency and there has to be a conversion loss from whatever it was that generated the electricity. Unlike Otto cycle ICE's, the part-load efficiency of a diesel is also rather high. As they are always run at wide open throttle, even idling is not overly consumptive of fuel( truckers stopped idling their engines to stop polluting, not to save money [although they now do that, too]).
The biggest advantage of electrics is not efficiency, but combining all of the polluting where economies of scale lessen the costs of pollution control/ CO2 sequestration.
The Chevy Volt is supposed to go 40 miles on a charge. My commute is 30 miles each way, so it would work for me, if I could charge it up while I was at work. There is also the option, for all-electric vehicles, of adding a small trailer with an ICE and generator, that essentially turns the vehicle into a hybrid when you need to go on a long trip.
Electric vehicles are ideal for shorter commutes, especially in cities, where for stop and go driving eats fuel and raises pollution levels drastically. EVs use zero energy when stopped, and can recoup energy when coasting downhill.
Long trips at highway speeds are still most economically accomplished with a reasonably sized compact car. My 1998 Saturn SL1 got about 45 MPG on a long trip, and my "new" 1999 will probably do the same. Newer models got into the HP war games and economy suffered. Now GM is playing catch-up.
For really long trips and for most long-haul freight, trains should be used. A "rail ferry" system could be used to transport your car to its ultimate destination at a fraction of the fuel use, and it would become economically attractive if it were scaled up much more than it is today.
Electrically powered trains could return power to the grid by using overhead wires and a pantograph on long downhills where they now waste the energy in friction brakes and resistor heaters from regen braking. And if they are carrying a load of electric vehicles, they could dump some of that energy into their batteries.
The EV1 could do better than that. Another lost technology...
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But A LOT cleaner than gasoline and diesel burned in ICEs ? And it we ramp up electric power from renewables, and phase out coal, then it gets even a lot better.
I actually did. Worked in a high-voltage cable manufacturing plant in the Netherlands for a while. It was pretty clean there :o)
Then, of course, being bereft of skills in arithmetic and, consequently, being unable to defend his untenable position, the knowledgeunable Bret Cahill dodged with:
--
That, after posting a cartoon depicting some sort of primitive heat
exchanger with no explanatory notes or even a mention of its
efficiency.
Tsk, tsk, tsk...
JF
Electric drive is 4X more efficient (not even counting regenerative braking), zero-pollution at the tailpipe (it has none), and is much lighter than an ICE.
More expensive ? Prototypes are always more expensive. But let's see :
ICE : Complicated engine with lots of rotating and moving parts, with oil + water cooling system, with emission control (incl catalytic converter with precious metals), with transmission and a differential and exhaust system and a massive amount of pipes and sensors.
Electric drive : a few melon-size electric motor/generators and a power control unit. Add a small (40hp) auxiliry power unit and you drive a 80mpg vehicle.
Mmmm. What would be cheaper in mass production ?
Batteries cost ? If you are an average American, you spend around $3,000/year in gasoline right now. I bet that for $3,000/year you can lease a top-of-the-line battery pack. Even at current low-volume prices.
What is cheaper ? What is cleaner ? What is more efficient ? What is better prepared for the post Peak-Oil era that we just entered ?
zero-pollution at the tailpipe (it has none), and is
Only if the electricity magically comes from somewhere free, and you lug enough batteries for 20 miles of travel.
But the electricity sas to be generated somewhere, at thermal efficiency levels. Transport, chargers, and batteries throw a bunch of it away. Batteries are heavy and full of nasty chemicals.
water cooling system, with emission control (incl
differential and exhaust system and a massive amount of pipes
And it all works great. I can load up 200 HP-hours worth of energy in about 2 minutes at a gas pump. That's about a 5 megawatt equivalent charging rate. And I can drive coast-to-coast on about an hour of pit stops.
Sometimes I get into my Rabbit in the morning, start it up, drive away
5 seconds later, turn on the radio and the heater, ignore the steep hills and the cold rain, and marvel at the whole process. And that hundreds of millions of other working people can afford to do the same thing.
unit.
What *is* cheaper? If electric cars are cheaper and more efficient, why aren't they popular? Conspiracy?
now.
at current low-volume prices.
The peak oil point is always 10 years away.
Hey, build yourself an electric car and save a bundle. There are lots of conversion kits on the market.
zero-pollution at the tailpipe (it has none), and is
water cooling system, with emission control (incl
differential and exhaust system and a massive amount of pipes
You seem to confuse electric drive with EVs. Electric drive with a small auxiliry power unit will give you all the benefits of the current gasoline (or another fuel) infrastructure. Like in the Volt (the only model with electric drive that GM actually has a plan for)....
Yes. me too. The ICE has served us greatly over the past 100 years that oil was abundant and cheap, and the engineering advances made are magnificent. The ICE also enabled an astounding economic growth that we (as the people of this planet) have created for ourselves. It also created a number of really big problems, which start to become apparent, increasingly difficult and pressing as well as more and more expensive. More expensive for individuals, as well as nations, as well as the planet's eco systems. It's time for change (before another 2 billion people join in our lifestyle).
control unit.
Want to bet ? In mass production, I want to bet that electric drive is significantly cheaper to produce than ICEs.
John, I don't believe in conspiracies. In a free market the most cost efficient solution wins. But big changes take time. The incentives are there now (to start moving to electric drive, away from oil and towards electricity), but only for the last couple of years. Also the political will to change (to start moving away from oil and fossil fuels) has not been there. We are just getting started (with PHEVs). This process is going to take a while (to move vehicles away from oil and towards electricity).
15-20 years is my estimate.
now.
at current low-volume prices.
That is impossible. Oil will peak at some point if it did not already.
I might just do that, although retrofits are very seldom cost-effective. I pretty much have to throw away half the vehicle (ICE/drivetrain etc etc you know it). And the other half (chassis) got crumbled on I 238 last week :o(
After all we talked about, this is what you say ? It seems to me that you have made up your mind on this subject.
Not that we have much choice right ? There are no production electric drive vehicles around today, so no framework to install batteries on. No business possibilities right ? So just wait, I guess. See what happens.
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