what's wrong with this circuit?

ote:

ircuit

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off, then

cause I

.65

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t; I simply

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oes

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0)

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0) 160uH

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 )

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| BAT54 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 +-->|--+--2R--+----+

148 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|--' =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

|----+--|| =A0 =A0 =A0 100uF =A0 =A0|

| =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 |--, =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

-| =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0100uF

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0\ =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0zener

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

----+----+-----=AD=AD=AD-'

assigned

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xplanation

built the

final

point

the lab

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as only

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r prof

a George

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contacting

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email and

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-
d
e
a

at

l.

rter

mind.- Hide quoted text -

The whole point was to make the circuit as low power as possible, so switching at the inductor Ipk point gets the most charging for the least switching loss.

Reply to
Fred Bloggs
Loading thread data ...

article:

formatting link

circuit

charge

then

the

simply

 |
+-->|--+--2R--+----+
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 zener
 |
 |
 |
 '--------+----+--------+-------------------+------+------+------+----+-----­­­-'

assigned

explanation

the

lab

the

only

bunch of

prof

contacting

assignment and

and

should

mind.- Hide quoted text -

Efficiency matters. A solar cell is nearly a constant-current source, so it delivers the most power at high terminal voltage, 0.45 or so maybe. It delivers zero power into zero volts. So, for best efficiency the cap should be very big and the ripple across it should be small, and it shouldn't be discharged to zero.

So this isn't the best circuit.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

article:

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[snip]

Yes- my issue relates to 1/2 C V^2= 1/2 L I^2 and the fact that the PV goes into photocurrent mode with a much smaller current than that supplied by the capacitor. So PV trickle charges C2 up to VBE(ON) of Q2, the latch swtches , discharging C2 through the boost L, and the R4- C4 is timed to switch everything off (via the latch and overriding the Q2 input because it is High) just when I=Ipk. Turning off sooner or later means less energy transfer to the battery per cycle. This is what the description of R4-C4 time constant being 1/4 x 1/sqrt(LC) is all about- it's not perfect but at least it tries. Allowing the voltage across C2 to determine switch off time by dropping below the VBE threshold of Q2 almost certainly does not fully discharge the available energy.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm going to have to chew on it for while. At this point what I understand is: there was indeed a rationale for the desiign. Whether it works great or only so-so isn't really all that important to me at this point.

Reply to
Michael Robinson

article:

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As I noted elsewhere, a silicon solar cell is most efficient when loaded steadily at around 0.45 volts or so. Discharging the cap completely makes the cell inefficient; you get more energy out of the cap *this cycle* but on average it's inefficient.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

e circuit

ucks charge

Q4 off, then

because I

to .65

with the

fect; I simply

d the

d does

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0)

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0) 160uH

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 )

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| BAT54 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 +-->|--+--2R--+----+

1N4148 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|--' =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

-->|----+--|| =A0 =A0 =A0 100uF =A0 =A0|

=A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 |--, =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0|< =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 |IRF530| =A0 =A0 =A0|

----| =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0100uF

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0\ =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0zener

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

+------+----+-----=AD=AD=AD=AD-'

or assigned

sted the

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and

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ke a

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shorter

it

in mind.- Hide quoted text -

PV

4-
e

Seriously LOL- in this particular case, the ability to deliver all the available PV current at less than maximum power available speaks to its efficiency and not its inefficiency. The idea is to stuff the battery with coulombs and not joules. In this case, joules are just a measure of how much energy it takes to accomplish that.

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

article:

formatting link

circuit

charge

off, then

because I

.65

with the

I simply

does

   |
+-->|--+--2R--+----+
   |
   |
   |
 100uF
   |
   |
 zener
   |
   |
   |
 '--------+----+--------+-------------------+------+------+------+----+-----­­­­-'

assigned

the

explanation

built the

final

point

the lab

pointless, the

was only

bunch of

prof

George

contacting

assignment and

email and

should

mind.- Hide quoted text -

I suppose there are two kinds of people in the world: those who believe in conservation of energy, and those who don't.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

--
Shouldn't be, since all that's needed is a local oscillator and a
mixer.
Reply to
John Fields

--
What does that probably erroneous supposition have to do with the
subject at hand?

Fred stated that what's important is to force the maximum charge into
the battery without specifying time.

Why do you have a problem with that?
Reply to
John Fields

You don't remember Larkin's nonsensical diatribe that charge is not conserved? ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     |

      Remember: Once you go over the hill, you pick up speed
Reply to
Jim Thompson

the circuit

r sucks charge

ng Q4 off, then

out because I

set to .65

ies with the

effect; I simply

and the

and does

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0)

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0) 160uH

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 )

-,

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| BAT54 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 +-->|--+--2R--+----+

=A0 1N4148 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|--' =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

--+-->|----+--|| =A0 =A0 =A0 100uF =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 |--, =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0|< =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 |IRF530| =A0 =A0 =A0|

'------| =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0100uF

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0\ =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 = =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0zener

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 = =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 = =A0|

---+------+----+-----=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD-'

essor assigned

posted the

the explanation

lab, built the

ly our final

power point

ere in the lab

ointless, the

t it was only

and a bunch of

ere our prof

ere's a George

here the

ering contacting

assignment and

e hiis email and

suppose I should

issing-

day and

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ith the

make a

nd the

its that

oved"

he cell.

nd shorter

oop it

sue in mind.- Hide quoted text -

the PV

of

e R4-

the

or

is

he

The photon produces and electron, and the electron goes into the battery, what's to understand? You have some way of making two or more electrons from that photon go into the battery?

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

Is that intended to be humor? I don't get it.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

article:

formatting link

circuit

sucks charge

Q4 off, then

because I

to .65

with the

effect; I simply

the

does

       |
+-->|--+--2R--+----+
 |    |
 |    |
 |
 |    |
 100uF
 |    |
 |    |
 |  zener
 |    |
 |    |
 |    |
 '--------+----+--------+-------------------+------+------+------+----+-----­­­­­-'

professor assigned

posted the

explanation

built the

final

power point

the lab

pointless, the

was only

a bunch of

our prof

George

the

contacting

assignment and

email and

suppose I should

missing-

and

the

make a

the

that

cell.

shorter

it

mind.- Hide quoted text -

A photon is going to make less than one electron, on average. And the voltage of whatever electrons it makes is going to be around 0.5. The battery voltage is way, way more than that. So there's no way to dump photocell electrons 1-for-1 into the battery. That would violate conservation of energy.

So we need a boost converter. The best we can do is let the solar cell run continuously at its optimum voltage, around 0.45 maybe, and build an efficient boost converter to charge the battery. Ibatt is going to be a lot less then Icell, by the voltage boost ratio at best.

If there is a capacitor across the solar cell, it should not be discharged to zero, or even much below the 0.45 optimum voltage. Any time it spends below Vopt is energy lost. So it should be a big cap, to provide the boost converter with the high current pulses it needs, without much ripple.

It does make sense to let the cap charge to 0.45 or so, and then fire one shot of the boost converter, then wait for it to charge up again. But the ripple on the cap should still be small.

I'm surprised I have to explain stuff this simple.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

If you have to ask a question like that, you must be in the non-believer group.

You and Thompson never discuss the electronics, you just whine about people who do. His excuse is that if he reveals any of his brilliant insights, I'll steal them. What's your excuse?

John

Reply to
John Larkin

te:

kes the circuit

ctor sucks charge

rning Q4 off, then

is out because I

ly set to .65

series with the

tle effect; I simply

ng, and the

cle and does

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0)

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0) 160uH

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 )

----,

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| BAT54 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 +-->|--+--2R--+----+

=A0 =A0 1N4148 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|--' =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

)o---+-->|----+--|| =A0 =A0 =A0 100uF =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 |--, =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0|< =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 |IRF530| =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 '------| =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0100uF

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0\ =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| = =A0 =A0|

| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0zen= er

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| = =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| = =A0 =A0|

------+------+----+-----=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD-'

rofessor assigned

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at the PV

at

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What I don't understand is how you miss the fact that the battery is being charged with carriers at the same average rate as they are produced by the solar cell, and by your own admission, the circuit delivers the most charge per switch. How can you improve on that?

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

JL adds folks to his "list" as each one disagrees with him.

Reply to
The_Giant_Rat_of_Sumatra

If I wind up with some enemies here, and they are whiners and lurkers who never say anything intelligent about electronics design, it's no loss.

Looks like I'm up to five or so. Heck, you should count twice. Or fifty times, one for each stupid nym.

John

Reply to
John Larkin

article:

formatting link

the circuit

sucks charge

turning Q4 off, then

because I

set to .65

series with the

effect; I simply

and the

and does

         |
+-->|--+--2R--+----+
     |    |
     |    |
100uF    |
     |    |
   100uF
     |    |
     |    |
   |  zener
     |    |
     |    |
     |    |
 '--------+----+--------+-------------------+------+------+------+----+-----­­­­­­-'

professor assigned

posted the

the explanation

lab, built the

our final

power point

in the lab

pointless, the

it was only

and a bunch of

where our prof

a George

where the

considering contacting

assignment and

hiis email and

suppose I should

missing-

day and

to

with the

make a

,and the

circuits that

"improved"

the cell.

shorter

loop it

in mind.- Hide quoted text -

PV

R4-

the

is

If by "carriers" you mean unit charges, you're dead wrong.

How can you get 100 uA average out of a solar cell at 0.5 volts, and deliver that same 100 uA average into a 3 volt battery?

John

Reply to
John Larkin

p://electronicdesign.com/article/power/single-solar-cell-trickle-c...

makes the circuit

nductor sucks charge

turning Q4 off, then

this out because I

upply set to .65

in series with the

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nning, and the

rticle and does

--,

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0)

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0) 160uH

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 )

+------,

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| BAT54 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 +-->|--+--2R--+----+

=A0 =A0 1N4148 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|--' =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A03 )o---+-->|----+--|| =A0 =A0 =A0 100uF =A0 =A0|

=A0 / =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 |--, =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0= |

=A0 =A0 =A0|< =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 |IRF530| =A0 =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 '------| =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0100uF

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0\ =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| = =A0 =A0|

=A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| = =A0zener

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| = =A0 =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 = =A0|

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0 =A0 =A0| = =A0 =A0|

--+------+------+----+-----=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD=AD-'

e professor assigned

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peated the explanation

in the lab, built the

actually our final

up a power point

e we were in the lab

much pointless, the

on, but it was only

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ind where our prof

=A0There's a George

h is where the

considering contacting

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are missing-

this day and

ting it to

ries with the

....To make a

oke ,and the

circuits that

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g on the cell.

rter and shorter

open loop it

with

ent issue in mind.- Hide quoted text -

that the PV

that

E(ON) of

and the R4-

riding the

sooner or

his is

rt(LC) is

ng the

elow the

e the

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Ummmm...by using a flyback boost inductor?

Reply to
Fred Bloggs

In the case of switching converters between solar cells and a battery, why should charge be conserved? Energy, yes. But the charge that ends up in the battery could easily be more or less than what comes out of the solar cells.

Jeroen Belleman

Reply to
Jeroen Belleman

--
Actually, it's a valid question because there are more than two kinds
of people in the world and, regardless of the erroneous supposition
you made, the number of different kinds of people in the world has
nothing to do with the topic. 

What you were trying to do was to discredit Fred with a snide
pseudo-authoritarian brushoff - which has nothing to do with the
subject being discussed - and is one of the tricks you use to try to
evade the issue at hand and bend a discussion to your advantage.
Reply to
John Fields

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