What's this Tesla Power Innovator Program?

ow would typical WH meters respond?

They actually already do that, in fact to higher voltages and to three phas e. You can't fool the meter.

With three phase power they can convert it to any frequency they want, ther e are a bunch of triacs involved and I would guess a fairly complex trigger ing system, but I have seen print of them. They can turn 60 Hz into anythin g you want.

I found out about it when I was attempting to design a one output device au dio/servo amp. Like if you took a standard light dimmer out the wall, you c ould set it halfway, introduce a DC bias to the gate drive and make it put out DC. No doubt. I was going to run it off of 60 KHz square waves and use it for audio and everyone who responded said I was crazy. (hell, maybe I sh ould try it) But researching it I found these frequency converters that do not even have rectifiers or filters, they just work off the AC. That told m e that the idea was not patentable and also there is always that other fact or. If it is a viable idea, how come nobody is already doing it ?

They have been working on electric meters for like 100 years. You really ca n't cheat them.

is going to care much about 100kHz? Do you even know how a power meter wo rks? "

If you do, perhaps you should explain it. I know the basics, there are coil s and they turn an armature, bla bla bla. But I don't know how they get th e power factor out of there, and really, even how they (should fairly) comp ensate for lees or more voltage. A coil and a shaft only knows current.

These meters are "legal for trade" which means they must compensate. They c harge per watt hour not amp hour, so there must be some method by which the y compensate for voltage variations. If you are being charged by the watt,

110 volts at 10 amps should not cost as much as 125 volts at ten amps.

So, do explain how these meters work. I look forward to the enlightenment. (and I am really not being sarcastic)

Google is your friend. Pictures and everything.

or is going to care much about 100kHz? Do you even know how a power meter works? "

ils and they turn an armature, bla bla bla. But I don't know how they get the power factor out of there, and really, even how they (should fairly) co mpensate for lees or more voltage. A coil and a shaft only knows current.

charge per watt hour not amp hour, so there must be some method by which t hey compensate for voltage variations. If you are being charged by the watt , 110 volts at 10 amps should not cost as much as 125 volts at ten amps.

. (and I am really not being sarcastic)

Electricity meters are watt meters rather than current meters. V & i are mu ltiplied to drive the motor. The technology is well known and dates back to the 1800s.

Electricity theft has of course been studied by the companies to whom it ma tters, who have instituted several means of detection, both automatic and m anual. The odds of detection are high.

NT

so you pull 100A for 0.1ms and then wait for 9.9ms (assuming 50Hz 'cause the arithmetic is easier) In the 1ms the rotor gets a kick and responds, and at then end of the day (month, etc.) the bill you for the equivalent of 1A times whatever the voltage was on the voltage coil at part of the cycle.

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I don't expect a high speed chop rate to confuse the meter. If it's an old analog meter, there is no reason to think the fluctuations won't be integrated. If it is a digital meter sampling at some rate, even if you chop at a higher rate, unless you can synchronize to the sample rate it will simply undersample and alias into the measurement region. In other words, it will still see the high speed pulses at a probability that matches the duty cycle. No?

What effect are you expecting to make these pulses un-observable to the meter?

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Rick C

It's not so much that power factor is "taken out". The analog meter uses coils for the current and for the voltage which perform an integration of the product of current and voltage over time. That is the definition of real power. So the reactive power is not seen by the meter.

The digital meters sample the voltage and current simultaneously at some rate sufficient to get within a specified error margin. These values are multiplied and integrated to get real power again. The reactive power is dealt with because there will be a portion that shows up with current and voltage in phase adding into the real power and other times current and voltage opposite polarity which is subtracted out giving a net zero power for the reactive component.

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Rick C

Really? If you order a 16 ounce roll of solder and they ship you 16 pounds for the price you paid, is that stealing? If I wire up my device to the power line and the meter doesn't measure the power usage correctly, how is that theft?

Tampering with the meter is another thing. Just because I have an 2 Tesla magnetic field NMR machine sitting on the other side of the wall from the meter doesn't mean I *intended* to saturate the meter sensors... lol

I'm not sure you understand momentum. If it ramps up slowly, it slows down slowly. A pulse is integrated just fine by mass.

If the point of saving energy in ground losses were true, he should have prevailed. The power was being wasted in the ground. That is no different from putting something in the garbage. It is legal to go through garbage to scavenge. This seems a perfect analogy. The only issue is proving the energy was being salvaged from reduced ground losses rather than pulling more energy from the line.

This has been discussed before. The power from the radio station is broadcast. It has already been shipped out for delivery to you or others. The only claim the radio station could make is that you are capturing an unreasonable amount of the power preventing others from getting a share. Hard to show. Even with a powered radio the antenna is capturing power from the signal.

I knew someone with a sticky meter. It would just stop. He would go out a couple times a month and hit it to get it going again so the utility would not realize it was broken. lol Is *that* theft?

Power factor doesn't cut your bill. In fact, it raises it because the power company will find out how badly you are messing with their delivery and they will hit you with fees. The only cost to them is the increased losses in the power lines... unless it is very severe such as everyone having the same power factor direction. Then it messes with their generation.

There are sometimes, but eventually the guy paying figures out he is paying and cancels the credit card.

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Rick C

It is indeed "theft of services". If you put merchandise from a store in the pocket of pants bought from the store, it's still theft.

If you *intend* to steal power by designing your load to bypass the meter, it's theft of services. No difference. The intent is to steal.

Dumpster diving is certainly a local ordinance. The courts have decided that you can't expect the contents of your garbage to be private but that doesn't mean that there is a right to scavenge from it.

How do you capture more than the power that would normally fall on your property? Absorb what would be reflected. Sounds like that would be a good thing (reduce multi-path).

I doubt that there is any way to force someone to report defective equipment but the fact that he was whacking it to hide the fact that it was broken, would qualify as "theft of services". It would be tough to prove, though. Is it a crime if you aren't (can't be) caught?

That's what the one guy did. It just happened to be the EM radiation from high tension wires.

That's a *completely* different situation.

Oops, I was assuming square pulses, as in low-duty, typical of SSTC primary coil drive, connected directly to line voltage.

...unless big pulses saturate the core, and esp the volts winding? Unless we're getting too near a coil resonance? The power-theft would be taking advantage of unexpected non-ideal behavior, since for ideal behavior, the m eter always works correctly.

:)

Yep, and digital meters also could have various theft-detection schemes. But note that the scam says they're based in Serbia. Maybe they have no el ectronic meters, and haven't encountered major population with newer, non-m otor versions. Or maybe Serbia *only* has electronic meters, and the theft scheme overloads the electronics somehow, and motor-style meters are immun e.)

Or of course, maybe it's all pure dishonest scam in the first place, and no t power theft. All these stupid "forty nine dolla" spammer websites appear to rely on half their customers receiving the refund and being happy, rath er than instead calling the authorities. That way they keep running the sc am for years, and nobody complains to FTC. But if their product actually produces some weird effects, they'll attract customers from the facebook r umor mill.

Empirical testing to see if it works or not! I may have an old non-disasse mbled KWH meter in the massive basememt of junk, if I can find it.

If mechanical KWH meters were shown to freak out about kiloamp low-duty pul ses, it could be caused by the core-saturation clipping the motor's magneti c torque, or caused by unwanted inductive or inertia effects, or unwanted r emenance in soft iron that ordinarily wouldn't affect the VxI. Or, I-squar ed effects in the induction disk which are insignificant for normal current s? I think skin effect makes inductive drag forces less at high freqs, bu t that would require fewer, sharper load-current pulses I think.

If someone here says "nope, well tested, doesn't work, here's the article," then it doesn't work. (Heh, but if SED trolls insist it doesn't work, the n suspect that it probably does!)

(((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty

beaty, chem washington edu Research Engineer billb, amasci com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 x3-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700

On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 11:17:51 PM UTC-8, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrot e:

That's the topic. Could this scam circuit actually be a power-theft device ? (And, yes, I was assuming a mechanical meter. Modern devices probably de tect such weirdness and report the theft attempts.)

ull the whole 100 amps for a split second before the armature can get up to speed.

That was my question: would extreme pulsed loads, a bunch of MOSFETS, mess up an actual meter if actually tried? (In theory... of course it doesn' t work!)

I was suspecting instantaneous I^2 might get some watts through a mechanica l meter without logging it, if the meter had never been tested for today's world of microsecond/kiloamps power switching available for five bucks at D igikey. Find a nonlinear meter-artifact and harness it.

Just suppose that these idiots with the website stumbled upon power-theft b y accident, heh "excess energy." And then started selling the plans as a c rackpot-physics energy supply?

Actually it's not new. There was that one 1950s antigravity crackpot who s pent years in UK prison for power-theft. His "overunity device" was discov ered, hooked up to his power meter, somehow making it read zero while his l ights were on. Searl, that was the guy.

over his property. He laid wires parallel to those wires and picked up som e electricity thereby. There was alot of haggling in court.

Also he could add the air-core resonant coupling effect (hook his loop to a pole-pig tuned to 60Hz with a load of phase-correction capacitors.)

The story I heard was the BBC World Service megawatt antenna array in the U K, with the sudden unexplained node in emission pattern. They found a farm er with an outbuilding being kept warm by an electric heater connected to a giant resonant loop of barbed wire fence. World's largest xtal radio, no xtal needed. IIRC they couldn't do anything legally, so instead they paid for his electric heating if he promised to not load down their broadcastin g to the rest of Europe.

(((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty

beaty, chem washington edu Research Engineer billb, amasci com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 x3-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700