Voodoo engineering

• You do work raising the free magnet.

• The free magnet does work on the magnet on the cage.

• Congratulations! You have successfully transferred energy from your muscles to the cage!

Seems to be that, they expect the magnet inside to 1. be raised by the external magnets, thus 2. elevating it inside the circle, causing it to 3. fall, thus turning the wheel. The cycle is continuous, as the system is continuous.

The most obvious fallacy is that magnetic attraction or repulsion in this direction is NOT angular (and if it were, it would be a conservative force corresponding to the dipole moment!), that is, it contributes no rotation. Tie a string from the center of gravity of the inside magnet to some point outside and you'll see it doesn't turn the wheel. You can turn the wheel and, due to gravity and tension, the inner weight will remain in the same position (and turn due to friction with the drum), but it won't just go and start spinning faster and faster. There is no difference between using a string and magnets, because you're only using magnets to hold it up without a string! No one will doubt that a string, rod and drum won't spin to infinity, but ooh...magnets...no one knows how they work...there must be some wonderful mystical power at work here we can tap!!!!111 No, sorry, magnets ARE very well understood, and well understood to be unity or less-than-unity sorts of elements.

Tim

-- Two pieces of cheese the same size and shape are con-gruyere-ent. Website:

You do the "work" one time only, once the magnet is in position (and tied down) it will continue to repel the internal magnet.

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The internal magnet, from my understanding, isn't raised off the inside circle. It just rolls away from the repelling magnet, in so doing rolls against and slightly up the incline presented by the hamster cage. Friction between the inside magnet and cage transfer the weight to the cage and upset its balance. Cage rolls to reach weight equilibrium and that rolling moves the inside magnet closer to the external one.

The repulsion is not angular, but magnets will roll up an incline to get away from repelling magnets.

(and if it were, it would be a conservative force

You lost me with the string. For this to work as posited, the internal magnet must roll away from the external one - the external one is not directly below the internal magnet, and not lifting it, but on one side of the cage axis.

I understand the fascination with magnets and their voodoo appeal.

Logic suggests that if this really did work, there'd be tons of demonstrators and executive desk toys based on the principle - if not actual power sources - so therefore it must not work. This stuff was first posted in 1999 . . . plenty of time for capitalism to find a way to exploit it for profit. (like those so called "radiometer" demonstrators - white/black vanes on a pivot in a partial vacuum) So it must not work - I just don't see why it shouldn't.

Many of the 'effects' of magnets are well understood. I'll buy that much.

My interest was in seeing how little power I could use to physically move something. I was always fascinated by those advertising posters with the kinetic elements that were common in the 50's. Most of them used a D cell, magnet, coil and mechanical switch. They would keep an element of the poster working for months on the battery cell - and a D cell back then wouldn't have stood up to a AAA today. The "Bedini" motor seemed like a good place to start - so I'm looking at some weird/fringe ideas.

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Right -- that means your motor can only run for one cycle. If you want multiple cycles and therefore continuous output, you'll need to keep working the free magnet.

I still don't see it. Repelling magnet causes inside magnet to roll up incline on inside of wheel - wheel is unbalanced and rotates to bring the repelled (inside) magnet closer to the repelling magnet, repelling magnet causes inside magnet to roll away (continuously)

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Build one and it will become obvious to you why it won't work.

Cheers! Rich

Just build a demo unit, and the world will beat a path to your door to find out how you did it.

Good Luck! Rich

NOT ANOTHER MAGNET PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE DESIGN. GAAAAAAAAHHH. All you are seeing is a smoke and mirrors trick. You put energy in to start the cage turning, the cage eventually stops turning after a certain amount of revolutions. Remove magnets and try again using same input force to start cage turning. Hey, it turned more times .

The article in the link said it best......."The rpm on mine was slow maybe 50 rpm. It turned about 16 turns before the top magnet hung up on the side plate. I have not been able to get it to work that long since".

Another case of lack of BASIC scientific and motor knowledge, as well as incomplete and/or piss-poor lab work and results. Nothing magic about it. Just plain wrong.

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Ok, simple explanation. First, you could try it, but what happens is that very quickly the system reaches equilibrum with the wheel slightly off balance by the amount the outside magnet is pushing the inside magnet.

You see, the friction of the magnet on the wheel pushes the wheel BOTH ways, so for it to roll up, it has to counter that friction, so the equilibrum comes when that friction just matches the magnetic repulsion.

Charlie

From what I read, the only energy input is to place the repelling magnet where it will influence the rolling magnet - no need to start turning the cage.

I suspect that is where he takes the rolling magnet out of the cage and rests it on the outside of the cage, and places the repelling magnet below it.

Like I mentioned, the writing leaves a lot to be desired. The author(s) reference to three different ideas one is supposed to already be familiar with (also involving perpetual motion.magnets) and three variations of this idea - repelling magnet outside the cage, repelling magnet inside the cage but fixed to the axle and not moving

- but forcing the rolling magnet away and downward, and putting the rolling magnet outside the cage and trying to get it to climb the cage.

I think it is that last idea where he can't keep the magnets aligned and keep it turning. On the outside of the cage - the friction and rolling direction both work in favor of the cage turning.

What should happen with the internal rolling magnet, is the magnet should roll away from the repelling magnet and part way up the opposite curve then stop - friction would prevent it from allowing the hamster cage to drop back to weight equilibrium - the magnet and that part of the cage would be pushed away from the repelling magnet

That's where the ball bearings come in I suppose. Decouple the rolling magnet from the inside of the hamster cage.

Probably.

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Yeah, I see that now. That's the reason for the bearings on the ends of rolling magnet . . .

He's got it covered too - put the rolling magnet on the outside of the cage so it is trying to roll up the cage surface. Rolling magnet and cage both turning in the same direction at their contact point.

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If there is 0 friction, the rolling magnet reaches a point of equilibrium where gravity and magnetic repulsion are equal. The cage does not move, due to 0 friction. If there is friction, the rolling magnet moves away from the fixed magnet, taking the cage with it, bacause of friction. It reaches a point of equilibrium as before, and holds the cage there, due to friction. In either analysis, equilibrium will be reached and the motion will stop.

Ed

I'm still waiting to see the videos of the demonstration model.

Thanks, Rich

There is no net force on the bar magnet or the hamster wheel. They just sit there in that position. Do your freshman Physics (free body diagram).