y walked up to the salesman and said he had $X, what cars did they have at that price? He got a straight answer and some told him none. At the end o f the day after looking at well over a dozen dealers we returned to the fir st. They had a sign on the wall talking about the mandatory $300 documenta tion fee. They never even brought it up. That was just another way of let ting you think you got a deal on the price and they get back $300.
hings are different there.
t was the context of the conversation.
You might see it that way. I sure don't.
0% loan is a red herring anyway. If your finances are such that you need a loan, you're better off buying private & paying the bank for the loan.
they paid the loan company to lend you the money at zero interest. A much better deal is to get a loan with significant percentage interest which the loan company will pay the dealership for sending you to them, enough that they will give you a lower price. Then a month later you pay off the loan. Had a friend who did that, saved a few hundred bucks.
.
est rate. If they are lending you money, it isn't free even if it is at a
0% interest rate. The other option is to take less money for the car which they often do when they are trying to move inventory. Maybe they didn't o ffer both options that day, whatever. Point is it isn't free.
reflect the use of a credit card. There are no small number of gas statio ns that charge a higher price when you use one. That's why the sign price is pretty meaningless if you are using a card.
here only foreign creditcards are allowed to be treated any different than cash
Perceived risk reduction. In theory a dealer should know if anything significant is wrong with the car and should either fix it before sale or should tell the buyer. They can be held to account for false representation and made to fix the car afterwards.
That's in Australia, where we have a mostly functional Trade Practices Act and a body to enforce it. I doubt you have that in the USA, so you have to resort to the courts to get redress, and then only the lawyers win.
If you know enough about cars to detect major issues, you don't need the dealer.
ly walked up to the salesman and said he had $X, what cars did they have at that price? He got a straight answer and some told him none. At the end of the day after looking at well over a dozen dealers we returned to the fi rst. They had a sign on the wall talking about the mandatory $300 document ation fee. They never even brought it up. That was just another way of le tting you think you got a deal on the price and they get back $300.
things are different there.
Why pay them?
"In theory", theory and practice are the same, in practice they differ cons iderably.
Oh? I don't consider a used car dealer to be my bastion against car troubl es. We have legal requirements for a dealer to not misrepresent a vehicle. I've asked questions and been told, "We have no way to know that" letting them off the hook. I don't think you can assume a dealer knows any more t han you do, certainly the law doesn't. In Australia, do you require a deal er to perform specific mechanical inspections? If not, how do you prove th e dealer knew about a defect?
I went with a friend to look at a used Civic hybrid some 20 miles away. We brought it back to her mechanic who said it seemed to be in ok shape but h e had no way to check the batteries. On the way back to the dealer the che ck engine light came on. When we told them about it they said "Yeah, we kn ow about that" but they never told us before. I expect had the light not c ome on for us, they would not have told us, law or no law. How would we pr ove otherwise?
ly walked up to the salesman and said he had $X, what cars did they have at that price? He got a straight answer and some told him none. At the end of the day after looking at well over a dozen dealers we returned to the fi rst. They had a sign on the wall talking about the mandatory $300 document ation fee. They never even brought it up. That was just another way of le tting you think you got a deal on the price and they get back $300.
things are different there.
Why pay them?
in EU law you always get 2 years warranty when buying something from a dealer, though only the first six months the dealer have the burden of proof
Sure. Are those requirements enforced by the courts, or by government employees though?
letting them off the hook.
certainly the law doesn't.
inspections?
There is a standard list of things that must be checked before a dealer sells a used car. It includes all the expensive items that can be checked easily enough if you know how. E.g. if you push down one corner and it bounces three times instead of quietly restoring then that damper is stuffed. If there are oil leaks, if the steering has play... these are all easy checks they are required and expected to have performed.
Bottom line, we have government-mandated "statutory warranties" that are actually enforceable and a dealer cannot squirm out of - a car that doesn't meet the standards may not be sold with registration plates. And we have various tribunal systems for resolving complaints, right up to jail time for dealers whose negligence causes injury.
That's because we believe that governments exist to protect the vulnerable, not to farm them to fill their own pockets.
You're, once again, wrong. FAR more gas stations charge the same for credit and cash. Most, around here, that have cash and credit prices are the most expensive around, as well. The cheapest (Sam's) gives me an *additional* 5% cash back if I use their card (no cash allowed, either).
No, he said "hit the bricks, loser.". There is a difference.
Exactly. It is not a "perceived risk reduction" - it is a /real/ risk reduction in Europe (including Norway, even though we are not in the EU). That doesn't mean buying from a dealer is risk-free, merely that it is statistically significantly lower risk than buying privately, and you have a far easier job dealing with the problem if something does go wrong.
When buying cars privately in Norway, it is recommended that you use a contract for the deal to say exactly what sort of state the car is in, and what checks have been done. There are standard contracts available
- it doesn't even require a lawyer and you can get advice and help from the big automotive clubs (like our AA equivalent). Yet many people don't do that, and many people get in trouble afterwards.
Also remember that Scandinavian shops and banks are a good deal more modern than most of the world. Here people understand that cash has a cost, both to the customer and to the shop, and it is usually a good deal higher than the cost of a credit card or (especially) bank debit card.
What percentage of people's cash gets lost through mistakes, losing your wallet, useless small coins collected in jars, money fallen out your pocket, crime, hidden away in a drawer and not found until decades later, etc.?
What costs do shops have for security and insurance from robbery? Time taken to deal with cash deposits and withdrawals at banks? Time wasted counting everything? Cash lost due to errors, forgeries, employee theft?
Put these things together, and a couple of percent cut to a credit card company does not seem bad at all. The best for everyone is bank direct debit cards.
On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 7:16:14 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wro te:
te:
mply walked up to the salesman and said he had $X, what cars did they have at that price? He got a straight answer and some told him none. At the en d of the day after looking at well over a dozen dealers we returned to the first. They had a sign on the wall talking about the mandatory $300 docume ntation fee. They never even brought it up. That was just another way of letting you think you got a deal on the price and they get back $300.
be things are different there.
. Why pay them?
What does that mean, "the dealer have the burden of proof". What does the dealer need to prove?
mply walked up to the salesman and said he had $X, what cars did they have at that price? He got a straight answer and some told him none. At the en d of the day after looking at well over a dozen dealers we returned to the first. They had a sign on the wall talking about the mandatory $300 docume ntation fee. They never even brought it up. That was just another way of letting you think you got a deal on the price and they get back $300.
be things are different there.
. Why pay them?
considerably.
oubles.
I don't know what you are asking. It is law and laws are enforceable by co urts. It's not US law though, it is state law and varies I'm sure.
That's good. But there are plenty of things that aren't so easily checked. The dealer would actually need to look for them in the shop. Some can be seen using the computer port. I don't know for sure, but I find it hard t o believe they would accept a trade in without checking these potentially e xpensive problems.
I have no idea what your point it. If you have something to say, say it.
Competition is often ineffective when you only make a purchasing decision i nfrequently. That's why car dealerships treat you like royalty until you b uy the car upon which you become the plebeian. They got their profit and i t is more cost effective to stiff arm you than to worry about whether you r eturn the next time you want a car.
they paid the loan company to lend you the money at zero interest. A much better deal is to get a loan with significant percentage interest which th e loan company will pay the dealership for sending you to them, enough that they will give you a lower price. Then a month later you pay off the loan . Had a friend who did that, saved a few hundred bucks.
g.
d
rest rate. If they are lending you money, it isn't free even if it is at a 0% interest rate. The other option is to take less money for the car whic h they often do when they are trying to move inventory. Maybe they didn't offer both options that day, whatever. Point is it isn't free.
o reflect the use of a credit card. There are no small number of gas stati ons that charge a higher price when you use one. That's why the sign price is pretty meaningless if you are using a card.
I'm glad you acknowledge that I'm right and many gas stations charge for us ing a credit card. It only makes sense those would be the lowest priced st ations, they don't have the markup to pay the credit card fees otherwise.
The rebate you get a Sam's is a credit card rebate, not a pump rebate, at l east that's what it is at Costco. Does Sam's knock it off the pump price? Still, that's one company's promotion.
nce took a girl friend with me to a dealership. Notice how they usually st art by asking who will make the decision on the car? I wheeled and dealed until I had the best price I thought I could get, then asked them to pay th e tax! They did the "have to talk to the manager" thing a couple of times and agreed to everything I asked for. The manager shook my hand which was my girl friend's cue to say, "But I thought we were going to look at the xx xx car first!" and we walked out. lol I am sure they knew they had been had. They've been around the block a few times.
u
y walked up to the salesman and said he had $X, what cars did they have at that price? He got a straight answer and some told him none. At the end o f the day after looking at well over a dozen dealers we returned to the fir st. They had a sign on the wall talking about the mandatory $300 documenta tion fee. They never even brought it up. That was just another way of let ting you think you got a deal on the price and they get back $300.
hey have to let many customers think they are getting a deal, they have way s of getting the money back. But when my friend was straight with them, th ey were straight with him.
Lol, you see the world just how you want to see it. Clearly there is no po int in discussing it with you.
I don't know the specifics about car deals, but "burden of proof" is relevant if there is a disagreement about the deal, and a civil court case. I take Lasse's point to mean that for the first six months after the sale, if you think there is something wrong with the car that the dealer should have known about, it is up to /him/ to prove that this is not the case (by checking the car, finding documentation about the tests run, etc.). Beyond those six months, the burden is balanced (as it is normally in civil cases).
As I said, it all adds up, amortised across the population. I didn't say /you/ keep losing your cash.
According to a quick google, something like 70% of pennies produced are handed to customers in change, and then disappear from circulation. So if you are buying things that cost $0.99 with a dollar bill, you (the average person) are paying a 0.7% "cash tax" right there. Extrapolate for things costing $2.95, or whatever, using whatever statistics you can find or invent.
/Shops/ have to go to banks to put money in, or take money out. It all involves a lot of time, effort, and security.
You are paying it already when you use cash. You just don't realise it (nor do many shops).
ly walked up to the salesman and said he had $X, what cars did they have at that price? He got a straight answer and some told him none. At the end of the day after looking at well over a dozen dealers we returned to the fi rst. They had a sign on the wall talking about the mandatory $300 document ation fee. They never even brought it up. That was just another way of le tting you think you got a deal on the price and they get back $300.
things are different there.
Why pay them?
That's very different to how car dealers work in the UK. The sale of proble m cars is routine for most. Redress is difficult.
There seem to be no shortage of folk fool enough to put dealers on pedestal s though, otherwise they'd be out of business.
infrequently. That's why car dealerships treat you like royalty until you buy the car upon which you become the plebeian. They got their profit and it is more cost effective to stiff arm you than to worry about whether you return the next time you want a car.
I only bought from a dealer once and wasn't treated like royalty. But they did let me take a car away with no questions, and I do mean no questions, n o deposit, no ID, nothing. So I got a pretty good idea there & then of the sort of operation they were.
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