We had a discusion on the gEDA group about this and fixing this problem appears to be not at all trivial. That opinion came from hardcore gEDA developers, competent folks who most certainly know what they are talking about.
Well, everyone should try for himself. I did, even loaded a VM and Ubuntu onto the machine just to do that :-)
Sometimes I have that impression. All I was doing is give feedback about how analog engineers in the industry work. About that I know a thing or two after doing this for 20+ years. Without feedback you can't design good software no matter how clever you are. After this "flying off the handle" some of the regulars on that group have sent me PMs, saying to please not stop and that such feedback is vital. To which I have to agree.
It isn't a personal attack. If it came over like one I apologize.
Yes. Only people who use cracked versions generate DRM problems.
I've used Eagle for many years. Number of problems: Zero. Not just WRT to so-called DRM issues but in general.
Yep. Because a program that can't handle multipart refdeses properly is not useful for a serious analog or RF designer. No matter how good it is in other aspects (and gEDA does have its advantages).
They really missed the boat on that one. Even old OrCad SDT had it and that wasn't a lot more expensive. I would have stayed with it but the number of times that "new and improved" Windows versions have crashed on me was the turn-off.
The multi-part refdes handling in KiCad as well as the lib editor in general are better IMHO. But like yours, this is only my personal opinion. Plus KiCad is multi-platform which is really nice. So is Eagle BTW (comes in a Linux edition).
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Regards, Joerg
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That's a show-stopper because of FPGA pin-swapping. BTW, Allegro doesn't back-annotate into Crapture very well either (it does do pin-swapping though).
Back annotating placement data from Allegro to Crapture requires some "dorky little command line program" too. We didn't bother for ages, which left *bad* placement data in the schematics. :-(
He's doing it in his "down" time. We don't do a tremendous number of boards so he fills in with other things. Straightening out our library (it's a mess) is one of them.
No way to push net names down into the hierarchy. No way to follow a net through the hierarchy. Sheet references get lost (and inconsistent) across hierarchy. All sorts of similar problems.
Crapture's *is* broken. You can get it to do simple hierarchies, but they're hardly interesting. Complex hierarchies do *not* work (Crapture support agrees).
I'm not sure what you mean here? If I hook up a net named "Foo" to a hierarchical block named "Bar," inside of bar the net is called Bar/Foo?
By using "select entire net?" Yeah, that would be nice.
I do remember being quite annoyed when trying to turn on the "schematic path" attribute of a hierarchical block that:
1) When you first turn it on, it gets displayed at some random location near the title block (certainly not where you want it)
2) If you then move it to where you want it, it turns blank! WTF!?
3) If you go and toggle it off and then back on, it will retain its position and finally work.
Apparently the display of title block attributes was meant to be quasi-static -- not something you'd enable/disable/move on a block by block basis. Seems like an arbitrary limitation though.
The infamous "Display properties cannot be edited if Property Editor is invoked from Project Manager. Please do it from schematic editor." is quite annoying as well -- after all, if you could edit the display properties of a given attribute for all your schematics enmasse, that would be useful, wouldn't it? Having to do them a schematic at a time takes much longer if you have a bunch of hierarchical blocks, allowing one to charge extra time to a project.
Even if it wasn't trivial, you did say cost was important, so I assumed after spending the time sorting out past or current projects, one would just create new projects using gEDA and work around the current gotchas?
Moving from one application to another is sometimes very painful, I do appreciate that.
They are great, I run XP under Virtualbox on this Linux workstation when I need to update my TomTom GPS maps or firmware, but don't XP otherwise.
I'm very surprised to hear it, usually it's Windows users I find who are unreasonable.
These days, we are all in this category (unfortunately). The gEda developers aren't young people anymore.
Free Software developers get a *lot* of feedback as their target audience is anyone who wants the software, versus anyone who has $5000+ to spend.
In 1998 I bought Pads (dos) for $5000 AUD, later I worked for a firm that had purchased Protel (Windows) for $10,000 AUD. Protel was a total dog.
gEDA is the cost of a download, and it has always just clicked with me.
I agree that accurate feedback is important.
I'm cool, and you were not attacking me. I jumped in the thread because I do know the gEDA developers and have the highest respect for them.
They have patiently responded to my inquiries over the years, and have always been contactable, sometimes issuing a patch within hours after my feedback.
I've never experienced this kind of personal attention with proprietary software, ever.
Absolutely.
However it's too bad if you have reused some part of a schematic that was created on a non legal version. How are you to know ?
Times are changing, the DRM is new, and you may be affected, the
*possibility* is now there.
I just can't see it as a good thing for the user, because they will control your data.
If Eagle are so worried about piracy, let them supply a hardware dongle like PADS once did, because the *software* is their IP, and I'm 100% cool with that, but the user data sure isn't Eagles to control in my opinion.
I won't argue with that, but gEDA isn't static, the annotator could easily fall under the gaze of someone qualified and motivated to fix it, and then it would cease to be a problem.
The source is available, all it needs is to be modified.
By comparison,Cadsofts hierarchical sheet structure problem won't get fixed until *Cadsoft* fix it.
Yes, I agree. I loved Orcad in the DOS days, so fast and so easy to use.
It's a complex area, I guess if it was easy, they would all be perfect :)
You debate very fairly, it's a pleasure to discuss the subject with you.
Isn't everything 'multi-platform' when using Virtualbox ? ;-)
I imagine that quite a few Windows only apps will come in a Linux version in the not too distant future as it continues to gain market share.
In the end, it's all about what the customers want, no ?
It seems to me that you're lumping *everyone* into the one equation.
Some people need a schematic capture/PCB layout package that will help them create some vastly complex design with minimal stress, and they have $100,000 to spend on it.
Some other people just want to create a small embedded project, such as a fixed particulate level detector, and don't have any special 'black magic' analog requirements. The may be a one man band, they may want something reliable, useful and very low cost.
Users and uses vary, and Joerg, said the *cost* of his software was a issue.
I don't recall claiming that "you can add new features to free software so it's then comparable to some commercial alternative that already has that feature", but you raise a valid point, because you
*CAN* do exactly that.
All you need is the skill, time and motivation, for one or more people. A 'user' would not generally want or be able to do this however, in my opinion.
Remember, Joerg said 'price is an issue', and whilst he didn't say that he didn't have upwards of $10k to spend, I assumed he was implying that he did not.
Apologies to Joerg is he does in fact have upwards of $10k to spend on a schematic capture/PCB layout package.
Indeed, and for many reasons.
1) Price
2) Open data formats
3) No DRM, you own your data.
Of course, the time and cost to change is just too great. Commercial app vendors love to lock their clients in, and this is often the *main* problem. Users can be retrained if the reward is there and everyone wants to do it.
I agree. I'm 55 and finding I embrace change less and less these days.
But life is about change.
XP users will need to come to terms with Vista7 at some point, and I bet, lots of them will not like that. Will your expensive windows schematic capture/PCB layout tools run under Vista7 ? This will be a great time for your vendor to force you to upgrade, I can hear the cash register in their upgrade department going 'kerching' already.
Terry, When he said 'price is an issue' he wasn't just talking about the cost of the software purchase, he is talking about the much larger cost of time take to learn the new software, to port years of part, symbol, model and footprint libraries to the new format, and to get vendors and customers to be able to use the formats of the new software. These costs dwarf the costs of the software itself!
Not really. "Working around" a bug like that would be like never driving a car over a pothole or any speed bumps because the chassis would fall out from underneath it. Without solidly assigned refdeses for U17A, U17B, U17C and U17D most noise-sensitive analog designs or well-balanced RF mixers such as in Doppler receivers are impossible. You can't properly perform the project with such a CAD system. Except if you always hand-annotate but that is tedious and error-prone for larger projects.
Cost is important, with everything. I will not spend several k$ for standalone schematic capture but it does not have to be free. However, the suggestion as made on the gEDA board to throw a few hundred bucks into the hat and then hope that someone fixes the bug (where the powers-in-place have already hinted that fixing it doesn't interest them much), ahm, no. Looks like their summer-of-code projects are more geared towards upgrading the PCB Designer part (layout). I am not a layouter but AFAICT that part of gEDA already works quite nicely. It's gschem that doesn't (yet).
True. That's why I want this CAD switch to really stick, and ideally be my last one. So I'll take my time. If Cadsoft fixes the missing hierarchy and it works I'll just send them a check and upgrade. That would of course be the easiest fix because I can keep all libraries. If other options show up (should try Altium now) that'll be fine as well but I'll test the heck out of them just like I did with gEDA.
You guys make me feel so old at times. I don't even have a GPS.
They sometimes are, wanting everything "TV dinner style". With software like gEDA one has to accept that it'll probably never be ported to Windows. People have tried to compile, with rather mixed success. That alone will keep gEDA a boutique software but if that's the wish of the community one has to respect it.
True, but most seem to never have done hardcore analog or RF design, meaning very large projects with tons of specially filtered or switched supply nodes in there.
If you do mainly digital stuff I can see it work nicely. Probably quite good for FPGA and ASIC designs because the hierarchy in gschem does seem to work well.
I have, with OrCad back when it was the "real" OrCad. The generic printer driver or something had a bug. So I called them (from Europe). Somehow I had forgotten that it was 9 time zones and not six. Whoops. Someone picked up anyhow. "No, the engineers are all gone, I am just cleaning here but will tell them". The next day I had a CompuServe message saying that indeed there was a bug in the driver and I'd receive an updated driver shortly. I wrote back that it would save them costs if they just did a file transfer via CompuServe. But no, the next Monday a big yellow van stopped in front of our house and there was a disk in it from Oregon.
I never, ever, download schematics or models from any unknown source and integrate that into my schematics. So I don't need to know :-)
Some of my clients use Eagle and we never had any issues sending schematics back and forth. Of course, like mine they all have it properly licensed. But even the occasional student who got stuck and sent me his freeware-created file had no problems.
They won't. If they'd do that the goons would be all over them. This SW has never "called home" because I have such "features" turned off on my PC.
They cannot control my data without a clandestine feedback channel which the electronic sheriff in my router would nab. Dongles? I absolutely will not buy any SW with dongles, never have. That spells compatibility troubles galore, seen it with others. And a
Au contraire, Cadsoft trusts me and other users that we do not clandestinely distribute our product activation keys. What's more, they formally allow me to install a 2nd copy on the laptop. Which other CAD company does that?
Unfortunately it ain't that easy anymore, there are some things embedded in the code that prevent a simple annotator fix. At least that what some of the gEDA architects said :-(
Just like there seem to be some hooks in there preventing a Windows port. This can lead to two scenarios, both probably unwelcome by the gEDA community. Either gEDA remains a boutique app under Linux and never makes it into mainstream or a "fork" develops and a Windows port pretty much permanently loses compatibility with the Linux distros. At least that's how I understood discussions between people who have tried such ports and the coders.
Sure, but that can lead to forking. Also, most users (like myself) aren't versed enough in coding to do that.
Lo and behold after years of bring it up (for their own sake) they recently said that it's under consideration. That would make this a wonderful software, pretty close to being perfect.
Sure, but OrCad, Eagle and the others have mastered that part perfectly. I've never seen either blow my refdeses.
Thanks, same kudos to you :-)
True. But there are some intricacies with Linux due to its file system. It is quite restrictive and for some writes you must log in as root. Not really my cuppa tea for security reasons even though Linux is (so far) fairly safe in that domain because hackers don't see enough "market". For the same reason thieves won't likely steal my car because it can't be profitably parted out :-)
Yes, it is. Although I've yet to see any corporate user employing Linux, other than for file servers. I think Eagle did it because they are still very much eyeing the hobbyist market, as evidenced by the lack of a hierarchy.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
$10k? No, not that much, I do not need a Rolls-Royce. Just for a schematic capture that is too much money. In 1989 OrCad SDT cost me $495 and it was almost perfect. Now inflation has been pretty bad but not this bad. I believe $1k for a near perfect capture software would IMHO be appropriate and I'd be willing to pay that.
You can be better off with an older copy of MS-Office, can be had for $100-$200. Legit licenses, for example for overstock liquidators, that's how I also bought my mechnical CAD almost for a song. Much less bloat than OO, much faster. On the big machine I also use OO because there speed doesn't matter, it's nearly always open.
With OpenOffice that doesn't mean much because industry has not accepted the OD standard, it's all MS-Word format. Without exception for all of my clients.
You always own your data. I have no software here where that wasn't the case. It's the user's choice. For example when you use one of the free layout programs of PCB houses they own the Gerber output but they clearly state that in the license agreement. Then after you buy the first set of fabbed boards from them they usually transfer the Gerbers into your ownership. Almost like renting the SW, a pretty fair deal IMHO.
[...]
Hmm, looks like we are all in the same boat.
Yes.
Why switch? I successfully sat out Vista and it seems about 75% of industry did the same. If Windows 7 isn't backward compatible enough it will flunk just like Vista. MS should have learned this lesson by now. But maybe they didn't, then it'll be XP for me.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Use another domain or send PM.
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I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food
I had that problem at Haffmans in Venlo. The computer manager not only didn't support Linux, but viewed it as a security risk - any Linux computer with web-access would have bypassed his firewalls, and let people download and install any kind of rubbish. They could have downloaded the same rubbish at home and installed it via a memory stick, but he seemed to think that it was a valid argument.
On one of the rare ocaasions when a virus got past my virus checker, I had to fire up the Linux partition to delete the the last traces of the virus, after the up-dated virus-checker had found it - the virus had set up its read-write-delete permissions in such a way that I couldn't get rid of it with Windows.
The answer to your problem seems to be a smarter IT - or perhaps a smarter employer.
Not that I'm interested in Orcad these days, but I do wonder how they wrote the driver, as Orcad was always closed source ?
I once loved it Orcad and carried my keyboard templates around with me.
I moved to gEDA about a decade ago, and have never looked back, gSchem is so similar to the old Orcad to me in that it looks similar and is blazingly fast.
I use a makefile with gEDA and when I click on 'make', the netlister creates the files for the simulator which then runs, or any thing else I need.
Usually people are just talking about the cost of the software, and I agree that's the *first* installment, but the rest can be paid off over time ;-)
I assume he's an engineer, he has a brain, and the ability to learn. Fast. What's more, a good engineer will enjoy the challenge and be able to taste the future benefits.
No. Old parts may be obsolete, or just not available. New part creation can be done on the new system. If the old system locked you in with a DRM'd, binary parts library, and you can't write something to port the parts, you're on a runnaway train to a washed out bridge, and have only yourself to blame for taking the wrong train.
You may be stuck with two systems for a while, it may be harder, so what, get over it because nothing worth doing is usually easy.
Whoa, you left out "getting the POPE to bless the new software" 1
Someone looking for decent low cost software on S.E.D. won't be Lockheed Martin, or IBM. It will be someone at home or self employed who wants to draw schematics and create pcbs as part of a project design.
How did this thread suddenly encompass the lofty goals you're espousing ?
I mention Free Software, and you jump in with requirements that most Windows software costing 10 thousand dollars won't meet.
Incorrect. These costs *may* dwarf the costs of the software itself, especially if you don't want to learn, can't learn, or are just too lazy to learn.
The world is changing Charlie, these days you learn at home and come to work with the drive and skills to go, or you find yourself out of a job.
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