Schematic Entry Tools? (from: Silly Resistor Values)

It was sorta interesting when we called support. They didn't even ask which version we were using, just yep it's broke. I wasn't there when they called back with the useless work around, though.

There is no "update" option on annotation? It throws out anything currently assigned? Ugly.

Not familiar with SDT. IIRC, I started using OrCad around the time Cadence bought them. Befire that I used proprietary schematic capture tools.

I like it a lot better than fiddling with schematics. The tools work, too. ;-)

Apparently there isn't anything better, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. :-(

I grew up on FutureNet Dash-2 and Dash-4. Those never crashed either.

But it's so boring ...

Yep, looks like it. Since changing a CAD is a major pain in the neck because of all the models you have to do over I am going to take a very, very long time before I ever switch again. Eagle doesn't have a hierarchy which makes it a less than top notch contender but in the many years I've had it Eagle has never crashed on me. With modern software these days that's already a pretty good thing.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Afaik Altium is taking over quickly. For around $8000 you have schematics, PCB and FPGA design. Still, I don't like working with Altium. Way too complicated. I actually needed the manual to get going (which is a really bad sign).

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
                     "If it doesn\'t fit, use a bigger hammer!"
--------------------------------------------------------------

[snip]

Delightful! Consider the phrase stolen ;-)

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

| 1962 | I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food

Processor and ASIC development is boring. FPGAs are far more fun.

Our layout guy is just starting to redo our entire library, so this would be a good time to switch.

Altium is currently priced at $4000 for the full package and $1000 for the 'front end' package with everything but PCB capability. Beware of probable relatively expensive 'software assurance' (annual maintenance from anyone else), but, it isn't mandatory.

Interesting blog here

which gives some insight into what is going on with Altium recently.

'A stinking pile of Orcad'? ;-)

--
You can\'t have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Stinkin' pile of Crapture.

y e e

That does seem to be a feature of user groups. When I was lurking on that newsgroup a few years ago, it seemed to be a remarkably constructive group, devoted to nailing down and fixing this kind of problem. They still seem to be upgrading the various components of the gEDA package - I still get the e-mails announcing new realeases - but there may not be enough people interested in using multipart devices for this to be high on the list of things needing to be fixed.

From the discussions of the gEDA mailing list, hierachy did seem to be something of a mine-field.

gEDA has the advantage that the developers are on-line, active and accessible. They may not be actively interested in fixing your problem, but they'd probably be willing to help you sort it out - it is open software, after all.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

[...]

ASICs can be fun if there is some high voltage stuff on there or if you have to play triage with electromigration. But the most fun is analog, RF or really high speed digital.

Ok, I am a bit biased here :-)

Ok, as long as you guys factor this cost into the game. It's pretty steep, lots of hours.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

Hardly a show stopper when it is GPL'd and almost no cost ?

This problem can be fixed manually if you have the time. And as time equals money, you will have the time, because gEDA is Free.

I'd suggest he does, because your one anti gEDA reason is hardly compelling to me.

So you're saying that the gEDA folks, whilst capable of building a stable, reliable, Orcad like schematic capture application, that's GPL'd and Free, 'fly of the handle for no reason' ?

Your post, lack credibility to me as it reads like a personal attack. I know the gEDA designers, and a friendlier, more approachable bunch, I doubt you'll ever meet.

Really? The same Eagle that's DRM'd ?

Have you checked your schematics lately, anything missing ?

How about tomorrow ?

Yet gEDA which has a very capable hierarchy, you won't recommend ?

It's a commercial application, you get what you pay for in that area.

I have to disagree. I find gEDA as smooth as silk, with unlimited configuration capability, and the non DRM features mean I'll be able to exchange my parts and schematics forever.

I don't like KiCad, sure it's pretty, but I find it unweildy. This is just a personal opinion, because I prefer gSchem, but I have used both a lot.

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It's a complete integrated EDA package, competing with OrCAD, PADS and Altium. They used to give schematic entry away, but they now charge for it.

Leon

Yes. Finding an old copy of CADKEY is difficult, but worth it.

It is no longer being made, but was a pretty good package for a lot of things.

...and it does an OK -- if not perfect -- job at it.

If Leon lets you into the Yahoo! Pulsonix group, you can take a look at some files I uploaded a few months back demonstrating the minor imperfections.

My own advice: Definitely check out Pulsonix. It's a reasonably solid program these days, although its basic "philosophy" of design is a bit different from the ORCADs/Protels of the world. The Pulsonix guys are pretty good at fixing bugs (and true "show stoppers" that, e.g., crash the program or corrupt data files get fixed immediately). The company behind it (WestDev) "feels" to me as though it's a bunch of "regular guys" programming -- you don't get the feeling that they have a bunch of "super star" programmers like, e.g., PSpice did *many years ago* (well before Cadence bought them). (Given that I can't really name any schematic capture/PCB layout package written by superstar programmers anymore, though, this really isn't very significant criticism...)

Unlike ORCAD, Pulsonix is still very much under active development. They just released a new version, one significant new feature being "proper" dual-monitor support (essentially it fires up two copies of the program, and then can be set to open, e.g., schematics in the one window and PCBs in the other... the two copies of the app communicate with each other as needed.)

One significant shortcoming given how powerful Pulsonix otherwise is is that it lacks a scripting language (or the ability to act as a COM server so that any major Windows app could control it). It does, however, have a relatively fancy report generator that at least supports some conditional branching depending on, e.g., part attributes.

Pulsonix has become noticeably more expensive in the past handful of years (when Pulsonix first started out, they actually gave away schematic capture for free and only charged you for the PCB portion!). I'd definitely check out Accel as well, since their current strategy seems to be to compete on price, and -- while I haven't used Accel in years myself -- it seems as though you're potentially getting a lot of bang for the buck there too.

---Joel

How so?

I've used hierarchy in both Pulsonix and Capture, and while Pulsonix has a slightly more powerful implementation, Capture's is a bit easier to use.

Not directly. The netlist formats it can generate without any additional effort are (taken from the help file):

a.. Accel PCB b.. PADS PCB c.. Zuken Rinf (Cadstar and Visula) d.. P-CAD PCB e.. OrCAD II DOS f.. Viewdraw

As of a year-and-a-half ago, schematic only was ~$600, schematic/PCB w/unlimited pins was ~$4,900, and schematic/PCB/autorouting w/unlimited pins was ~$7,250. There are numerous price points inbetween if you can live with pin restrictions (1000 or 2000 pins), layer restrictions for the autortouer (6 layers), etc. Network (floating) licenses add ~15% to the cost. Pulsonix can integrate with a database (e.g., an MRP package), although the pricing gets complicated -- there's a (big) separate charge for the "enabler" (needed for the 1st client) and then a (much smaller) charge for each client. There's also a few "add ons" for support of e.g., differential pairs ("high speed design"), embedded components, chip packaging, etc. -- most of these are in the low 4-digits price range.

The prices have undoubtedly gone up by now. Annual maintenance is ~12.5%.

You just install the regular package and point it at a freely-provided "viewer" license file. Works just peachy...

BTW, take what Leon says with a grain of salt: He's a good guy, certainly, but he's not paying for his copy of Pulsonix (he's an official beta tester) and, um, tends to only advertise the upsides of the product.

---Joel

There's a fair impression, certainly: There's no means whatsoever to import a "was-is" or any other form of back-annotation file between a 3rd party PCB layout tool and Pulsonix schematic capture. (It can, of course, synchronize between a Pulsonix PCB and a Pulsonix schematic just fine.)

I'm in a somewhat similar situation in that we use PADS layout, and that's not likely to change (nor does PADS seem all that bad, either -- a bit weird, perhaps, but powerful and stable). However, back-annotation from PADS to Capture involves running some dorky little command line program "by hand," so if Pulsonix would only provide a means to import was-is files or even just a scripting interface, I'm confident a process as easy or easier than the current PADS-Capture back-annotation could be readily developed.

---Joel

You realize how unrealistic that is for the vast majority of people looking a schematic capture/PCB layout package, don't you?

I'm not knocking free software at all here -- it's great and I'm very much a supporter -- but the argument that "you can add new features to free software so it's then comparable to some commercial alternative that already has that feature" is one that, while true, applies to perhaps 0.1% of potential users.

The reason people pay upwards of $10k for schematic capture/PCB layout tools is because it would take them far more than $10k worth of time to go and fix up gEDA to be competitive with the offerings from the big guys. Granted, not everyone *needs* all those features (indeed, many people who *think* they do often don't even end up using them) -- look at OpenOffice: While not as powerful as Microsoft Office, I'm of the opinion that it does have all the features that at least 90% of MSO users would ever use, so it does make sense as an alternative.

The reason companies stay with blatantly non-competitive programs such as Capture are due to the real costs of porting parts libraries to a new package, retraining costs... and the sad fact that some people are opposed to changes, even if it is change for the better, because it requires effort.

With software there's often little correlation between price and performance (see OpenOffice example above).

---Joel