OT: The Power Grid Will Fail within 36 Months

Here on the SF peninsula, it only rains in the winter, maybe mid-November through mid-March. It's usually warm and dry in Sunnyvale (SUNNYvale. Get it?) I guess they don't have the advanced fog-making technology that we use up here in San Francisco.

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Fog12.jpg

Some days, we can't even see that pole pig in the foreground.

We are rather far north, so the sun angles aren't so good. PV solar only exists because of huge subsidies. Solar water heating makes sense in some places around here.

John

Then it's time to convert all those useless European bureaucrats into methane. Start with the morons who mandated lead free solder.

What's that compound that the chemistry teacher used to dissolve in water and blow through it and it made the water cloudy, or change color, or something?

Five percent? I had no idea we were _that_ efficient! ;-)

Cheers! Rich

Oh, I don't think Bill needs convincing - he's got The Faith, you see. ;-)

Cheers! Rich

Wow! Now not only do you KNOW that CO2 will KILL US ALL, you're a mind reader, too!

Gaw, you're wonderful! Is there anything you can't do? Bend steel in your bare hands? Change the course of Mighty Rivers? Leap tall buildings in a single bound?

Is there no limit to your powers?

Thanks, Rich

Phenolphthalein is one indicator. Also is the active ingredient in x-lax.

tm

All that food and beer we eat and drink has to get oxidized. That makes a lot of CO2. Respiration is a decent fraction of all the CO2 that humans generate. I probably generate about as much CO2 as my car does, at least when I'm in town.

John

You only notice the facts that you agree with.

Think about it. An "unanticipated mechanism" is one of Rumsfeld's unknown unknowns - and unspecified excuse for not doing something.

One can understand why you would like to see people who post nonsense treated with kid gloves - you post a lot of it yourself, and don't like it when it is identified as nonsense.

The downside of this approach is the emperor running arond stark-naked because nobody is rude enough to tell him he has been conned.

You enjoy your nonsense, and resent it when it loses it shiny tinsel wrapping, but it still isn't good for you.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

and

rm

store

Obviously not completely depleted over-night. It gets charged up at work the following morning after you've done your - relatively short - commute. People with long commutes or small batteries would opt out.

This is one of those averaged-over-a-sufficiently-large-population schemes.

-- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

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Rich hasn't got much of mind, and what he has is tediously predictable.

Obviously, I'm only going to use them for the good of mankind. Applying them for my personal advantage - say - to find myself a job - would be most improper.

-- Bill Sloman, Nimegen

Been an interesting subthread. I took Sylvia's point wondering about where most of the gov't-spent "incentives" are going when they might be better spent directed at science research and engineering implementations of better results. And your point about economies of scale and investment driving improvements in the limited area of existing solar cell knowledge while also electric cars driving storage technology and research.

The upshot may be that, granting the zero-sum situation that probably applies on gov't spending in these areas which means spending in one place subtracts from spending somewhere else, gov't should invest in such a way that doesn't place quite so much emphasis on mere cost reduction of existing solar cell technology and more on ideas that may uncover new pathways with longer term promise. That's on the generation side. On the storage side, I take your point well that with existing pressures for electric and hybrid car technologies (and laptops and cell phones, too) will push research there. So gov't may not need to shift emphasis in that area, while looking to shift some of the research pressures on the generation side.

Back in April of 2009, I spoke with Bruce Barney, an engineer from PGE (Portland General Electric), who is their primary contact for anyone interested in wind, water, or solar PV power. 3% of our local PGE electricity bill (residental subscribers only) is a "public purpose charge" with a charter to support renewable energies and energy savings adaptations.

He mentioned that PGE is looking into plug-in cars, electric only or hybrid, with the idea of using the cars (smartly programmed) as energy storage for their electric grid system. They hope to actually store/extract energy to/from the car after asking the car if it is going to be used soon. PGE would use the information for storage and retrieval of energy. They are hoping car owners buy up enough of these types of cars that they may take advantage of them as a massive, distributed power grid storage component.

Actually, he seemed to suggest that PGE is excited about the idea and all too hopeful about it. They won't buy us the cars, of course. They are hoping we'll just do it on our own and that they can then hint to us that we make our cars (and knowledge of our plans every day) available to them. There are a few barriers there -- privacy and the concern of personal schedules being uncovered by thieves being only one of them. It will be interesting to see how this facet plays out over time.

Jon

Well, there's our CO2 Final Solution - just make all the warmingists lead by example, and set the pace by refraining from breathing. ;-)

Boom! CO2 problem solved!

Cheers! Rich

Ah, the superiority imprint:

"The superiority imprint is activated in those who believe they are right, are on the right side in a battle, have just cause in attacking another, are in some way 'better' than another, wanting something another has, or are feeling like they need to win or be first. This imprint is the deep unconscious driving force under all feelings of competition, and in every use of weapons, including self defense. The need to be right and the need to be superior are very deeply ingrained in the spirit essence of all beings because of this imprint." --

Cheers! Rich

If the vehicle has enough capacity to be used that way, it should be exchanged for a vehicle with a smaller, and lighter, battery.

The scheme amounts to having battery backup for solar, but for some unfathomable reason, moving the batteries from place to place, thus wasting a lot of energy.

Sylvia.

When my electric powered storage hot water system reached the end of its useful life a couple of years back, I did extensive calculations on the solar hot water option, and concluded that even with the government subsidy for solar hot water, it was really only a break-even scenario (and this with Sydney's lattitude and climate).

I was going to go with it anyway, but a complicating factor arose, and I ended up just installing another electric system. Of course my calculations were based on off-peak tarrif electricity, but I don't see that disappearing any time soon.

A carbon tax would presumably alter the calculation, but I suspect it would merely reduce the level of subsidy required to make solar hot-water a rational choice for the consumer.

The best thing to be said for solar hot water seems to be that it's a more cost effective way of reducing CO2 emissions than solar PV. Using nuclear power to run storage hotwater systems would be more cost effective still.

Sylvia.

The point about unanticipated mecanisms is that they do arise. In the context of something that could have hugely devastating consequences, we'd want a very high level of assurance that such mechanisms are absent. In practical terms, this means testing of repositories of a safe size over a long period of time - I'd suggest many decades.

Which in turn means it cannot safely be used soon enough to provide a solution to the currently perceived problem.

Sylvia.

Now, now...GW is a farce, due to reliance on false data created by parking lot measurements.

Strychnine is perfectly natural too. Natural does not equal safe.

I don't think the danger is all that great - unless there was a massive sudden wide area release through deep water like with the volcanic lakes. I don't know how well a jet like leak at high pressure CO2 would mix though. I suspect like a fountain it will go up and then fold over. At least that is what is modelled on high pressure pipelines and then the heavier than air gasses are expected flow downhill mixing a little bit until they find a source of ignition. The noise at close quarters is supposed to be incredible ~140dB when high pressure pipelines fail.

I largely agree. I doubt it can be done cost effectively. Although there are other techniques using fancy catalysts on flue gasses that may allow more than one bite out of the cherry in future before venting all power plant CO2 to atmosphere as waste gasses.

If we are going to burn very large amounts of coal then we are going to have to do something about the corresponding increase in CO2 in the atmosphere and associated increases in global temperature leading to sea level rise. I live more than 50m above sea level so I am laughing.

Regards, Martin Brown

Rather far north is latitude >50 like the UK. San Francisco would be almost a Mediterranean climate if it didn't have the fogs.

Using high grade electrical energy for passive resistive heating is an abomination though. Of the currently available technologies fuel cell designs that make electricity and use the waste heat for domestic hot water are about the most efficient method available but capital cost is high. The Japanese Prime Minister has one installed in his residence.

Solar hot water was fairly popular in Japan even in the 1990's long before global warming was even under consideration. Electricity prices there are somewhat higher than world average because they have to import almost all fossil fuels and rely on a high proportion of nuclear.

Local electricity generation with fuel cell technology is the most efficient overall. And direct burn of gas or oil water heating should also be more fuel efficient and cost effective than electricity too.

Regards, Martin Brown