OT: Tesla escaped death another year

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rote:

nversion-obrist/

ing it to a Leaf is just stupid. lol

deteriorate faster than Tesla. Just wondering what they are going to do w ith the Tesla batteries. I don't think they can buy a Tesla without the ba tteries anyway.

e energy than regular 18650, but need liquid cooling and heavy metal to pro tect them. So, passive cooling packs might be lighter overall.

e space, but lighter.

e car or are you running an inverter to charge the car off of 120VAC?

laptop and other stuffs, and charge the main batteries in emergency.

I do strange things. I should let them meet you.

et a car with a reasonable battery.

Yeah, we can have any size battery as long as it's the one size provide by the manufacturer. Most of the time, i only need a small battery to drive a round. When i need to relocate vehicles, then i need one big battery in th e car one at a time. When it's not in any car, it's for solar grid bufferi ng.

"Both GM and Tesla hit the limits of federal tax credits in 2019. It appears to have had little impact on Tesla, but put a drain on the Bolt. The transition to the longer-range 2020 model might have been an issue as well."

It's selling less because without the tax credits it's too expensive for its target audience, people were driving off in them for like 28 grand before. You could lease them for 1k down $249/month.

The average sale price of a Model 3 is like 45k. And a lease on even a base trim Model 3 is something like 5k down and $450/month.

The Bolt and all of Teslas products are in two different market segments. The expiration of the tax credit didn't really hurt the luxury market segment but it did hurt the economy market segment. Sales of economy cars are down across the board.

That is to say most buyers who were formerly interested in the Bolt aren't making a decision between the Bolt and a Model 3 and saying "Ok I should get a 3 instead" they're getting some other crossover, and most buyers who get a Model 3 never looked at the Bolt.

Tesla is the BMW or Lexus of electric cars, I think it's silly to make comparisons between the two mfgrs just because both products are electric. Any more so than like Toyota buyers and BMW buyers. Eh don't really want the RAV4, guess I'll get a nicely-equipped 330i instead. Umm, no?

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miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more than t he long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

omplaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the expensive chargers on his longer trips.

will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have driven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

very few people who will buy such limited vehicles. But mainstream will wa nt something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile range. The Ni ssan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely impractical until recently being the highest selling EV in the US. But that's all early adopters and neither the Leaf nor the Tesla model 3 accurately reflect what will be mai nstream in 10 years as the wider public are buying EVs en masse. I don't r eally know what EV configuration will be the ultimate winner. I just know it will be an EV.

drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all. With a 200 mile range it's at the top end of your limited range EV. The model 3 is just too much comp etition for it. That and GM just can't match Tesla in imagination. The Bo lt is very much a Chevy and will always be one.

I don't think the Bolt is being hurt by the lack of tax credit any more tha n the Tesla. The bottom line is the Bolt is an ok car with nothing else go ing for it while the Tesla model 3 is a great car with a lot going for it i ncluding a nation wide charging network. Even if you never leave your home town, you are much less likely to even consider buying an EV if you don't a t least have the option of charging readily on trips. The several times I' ve gone in to talk to Chevy they still don't talk about charging other than a few canned sound bites. One sales man told me it could charge from 20% to 80% in 30 minutes or some time. But he couldn't tell me where it could do that. They only have a level 2 charger at the dealership. Your price i s off too.

So you want to compare the base model Bolt to the "average" Tesla???

Not sure what market segment you are putting these cars into. Their price is the same. The Bolt is a SUV sort of shape while the 3 is a typical seda n. Surely you aren't suggesting the Bolt is an economy car!!!?

--

  Rick C. 

  ---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  ---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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I think many people who look at a Bolt end up buying the model 3. I distin ctly got the impression that as soon as I indicated I was aware of the Tesl a the Chevy salesperson lost interest in talking to me because they knew it was a lost battle. You may be well right in that people buy Teslas withou t looking at the Bolt, but not because of "market segments" but because the y either had not really heard much about the Bolt if at all, or they alread y knew the Bolt was not selling because it was poor competition.

I debate with the Tesla fanbois in the forums and point out that the other car makers have been selling cars for a hundred years and know what people want. Tesla has been doing well for some time now ignoring the lessons lea rned by the many companies who have been bought up or just closed their doo rs. I am sure that at some point Tesla can't continue the way they are goi ng now. But that time may still be a few years off and they may be selling a couple of million cars per year by then. So ultimately the Fanbois may be right.

--

  Rick C. 

  ---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  ---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Cheapest new Bolt configures for about 37k on the site, it could be as low as 29k but the final price depends on how much "cash allowances" you get. Most people won't pay 37k for it. Lease for between 240/mo with 4k down and 315/month with 2k down. Finance for $400/month with no down payment.

The cheapest Model 3 I can get from the configurator on their site is $39,990. Lease is 400/month with $4500 down. Financing is $635/month no down. No option to buy out the car at the end of a lease, either.

These vehicles are not in the same class. Not for the base trim and definitely not if you start adding options to the Tesla. If you think they are then u are some boomer who buys 100k rides in cash.

OK BOOMER?

Lots of people lease their cars, and for many people who lease cars because they can't afford to buy new the gulf between 240/mo with 4k down and $400/month with 4.5k down with no option to buy out isn't trivial it's huge.

Model 3 isn't picking off sales from the Bolt or Leaf or Camry or whatever they're picking off BMW, Lexus, Infiniti and Mercedes.

Tesla drivers pay cash.

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t 50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more than the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the expensi ve chargers on his longer trips.

le will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have driv en more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

a very few people who will buy such limited vehicles. But mainstream will want something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile range. The Nissan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely impractical until recent ly being the highest selling EV in the US. But that's all early adopters a nd neither the Leaf nor the Tesla model 3 accurately reflect what will be m ainstream in 10 years as the wider public are buying EVs en masse. I don't really know what EV configuration will be the ultimate winner. I just kno w it will be an EV.

t drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all. With a 200 mile range it' s at the top end of your limited range EV. The model 3 is just too much co mpetition for it. That and GM just can't match Tesla in imagination. The Bolt is very much a Chevy and will always be one.

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than the Tesla. The bottom line is the Bolt is an ok car with nothing els e going for it while the Tesla model 3 is a great car with a lot going for it including a nation wide charging network. Even if you never leave your hometown, you are much less likely to even consider buying an EV if you don 't at least have the option of charging readily on trips. The several time s I've gone in to talk to Chevy they still don't talk about charging other than a few canned sound bites. One sales man told me it could charge from

20% to 80% in 30 minutes or some time. But he couldn't tell me where it co uld do that. They only have a level 2 charger at the dealership. Your pri ce is off too.

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ice is the same. The Bolt is a SUV sort of shape while the 3 is a typical sedan. Surely you aren't suggesting the Bolt is an economy car!!!?

LOL! You don't know diddly squat! You can buy a model 3 for $35,000 PERIO D. If you can't figure out how to do it, there is no point in further disc ussion. You might try doing a little googling.

You are such a trip.

--

  Rick C. 

  --+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  --+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Ya I know about it it's hardly the point, the point is they hardly sell any of them! Not even available on the website! They move diddly units worth of that base-base trim. They move diddly units of it and all the other trims and vehicles aren't remotely in the same market class.

That significant numbers of people are passing on the Bolt to pick up a stripped-down Model 3 off the secret menu is absurd. They're passing on the Bolt at the moment, sure, but that it's mostly due to Tesla seems unlikely to be the reason.

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, 50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more th an the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

re complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the expen sive chargers on his longer trips.

ople will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have dr iven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

e a very few people who will buy such limited vehicles. But mainstream wil l want something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile range. Th e Nissan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely impractical until rece ntly being the highest selling EV in the US. But that's all early adopters and neither the Leaf nor the Tesla model 3 accurately reflect what will be mainstream in 10 years as the wider public are buying EVs en masse. I don 't really know what EV configuration will be the ultimate winner. I just k now it will be an EV.

est drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all. With a 200 mile range i t's at the top end of your limited range EV. The model 3 is just too much competition for it. That and GM just can't match Tesla in imagination. Th e Bolt is very much a Chevy and will always be one.

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re than the Tesla. The bottom line is the Bolt is an ok car with nothing e lse going for it while the Tesla model 3 is a great car with a lot going fo r it including a nation wide charging network. Even if you never leave you r hometown, you are much less likely to even consider buying an EV if you d on't at least have the option of charging readily on trips. The several ti mes I've gone in to talk to Chevy they still don't talk about charging othe r than a few canned sound bites. One sales man told me it could charge fro m 20% to 80% in 30 minutes or some time. But he couldn't tell me where it could do that. They only have a level 2 charger at the dealership. Your p rice is off too.

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price is the same. The Bolt is a SUV sort of shape while the 3 is a typica l sedan. Surely you aren't suggesting the Bolt is an economy car!!!?

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ERIOD. If you can't figure out how to do it, there is no point in further discussion. You might try doing a little googling.

So they were selling more Bolts until Tesla model 3 started shipping in vol ume and then the Bolt sales numbers dropped, but clearly it has nothing to do with the model 3. Ok, thanks for making that clear. :)

--

  Rick C. 

  --++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  --++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

GM hit the 200k tax credit limit in Q4 2018, it fell to half the original 7500 in early 2019, and it fell to $1875 in October of 2019, the Model 3 started shipping in large volume also approximately Q3 2018.

I think the big issue is the tax credit and the timing of the 3's release is coincidental I doubt Musk even think about the Bolt at all and most 3 owners never thought about it either.

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ve, 50 miles EVs are much cheaper to build. Even short range EVs are more than the long range bicycles (5 miles?) anyway.

here complaining about the cost of charging because he can't bypass the exp ensive chargers on his longer trips.

People will buy hybrids rather than such limited battery vehicles. I have driven more than 50 miles in a day with local driving.

are a very few people who will buy such limited vehicles. But mainstream w ill want something a bit more practical, like 100 mile or 150 mile range. The Nissan Leaf shows such vehicles are not completely impractical until re cently being the highest selling EV in the US. But that's all early adopte rs and neither the Leaf nor the Tesla model 3 accurately reflect what will be mainstream in 10 years as the wider public are buying EVs en masse. I d on't really know what EV configuration will be the ultimate winner. I just know it will be an EV.

test drove a Bolt and it's not a bad car... at all. With a 200 mile range it's at the top end of your limited range EV. The model 3 is just too muc h competition for it. That and GM just can't match Tesla in imagination. The Bolt is very much a Chevy and will always be one.

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more than the Tesla. The bottom line is the Bolt is an ok car with nothing else going for it while the Tesla model 3 is a great car with a lot going for it including a nation wide charging network. Even if you never leave y our hometown, you are much less likely to even consider buying an EV if you don't at least have the option of charging readily on trips. The several times I've gone in to talk to Chevy they still don't talk about charging ot her than a few canned sound bites. One sales man told me it could charge f rom 20% to 80% in 30 minutes or some time. But he couldn't tell me where i t could do that. They only have a level 2 charger at the dealership. Your price is off too.

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r price is the same. The Bolt is a SUV sort of shape while the 3 is a typi cal sedan. Surely you aren't suggesting the Bolt is an economy car!!!?

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PERIOD. If you can't figure out how to do it, there is no point in furthe r discussion. You might try doing a little googling.

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volume and then the Bolt sales numbers dropped, but clearly it has nothing to do with the model 3. Ok, thanks for making that clear. :)

Not really the same issue is it?

--

  Rick C. 

  -+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

People who've been buying the splurge of Model 3s are mostly middle-age dudes who've been sitting around for several years waiting to buy their dream car and be an official part of the Tesla club. they're mostly not like "Hmmm what shall I buy?"-people.

As one former Volt owner on the forums described the experience of trading his Volt for a Tesla 3 he said "My self-esteem felt a lot worse and I felt like way less of a man when I only had a Chevy product and didn't have a Tesla product and I was parked next to someone with a Tesla."

I told you the big picture overview my dude. US sales of luxury sedan EVs, luxury electric SUVs, high-end ICE pickups and maybe electric trucks and electric sports cars, and ICE luxury cars/sports cars are going to continue along steady or rise, from whatever manufacturer Tesla included.

Camry sales are down. Civic sales are down. Accord sales are down. Bolt sales are down. Sales of every other type of lower-cost EV on the US market, such as they are, is down. Sales of all other classes of vehicle other than those mentioned above are going to go down. And go down. And go down for the foreseeable future.

The introduction of the EV signals the end of the auto industry as we have known it, yes I think so. That doesn't at all mean everybody's gonna get an electric car or have any car at all. The Volt and Bolt and Leaf were the first affordable long-range high-performance electric/hybrid vehicles and I think there's a good chance they will be the last, too.

Your OCD with the Volt is showing. Too bad no one else agrees with you. A ll the Volt did was squander GM's tax credits. It would appear they used i t as a springboard to the Bolt, but completely failed on any follow through such as information on charging, incentivizing dealers or even advertising . It's almost as if GM had no interest in EVs and were actually trying to sink that boat. Well, GM certainly put a hole in their own dinghy.

Honda agrees with you about hybrids. We'll find out if they alone are righ t. Oh, wait, hybrids have been around for two decades. If they were the w ay forward you'd think they would already have moved the market and created a new standard vehicle. Instead GM deleted the Volt. The Volt is now jus t a comma on the page of automotive history.

--

  Rick C. 

  -+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  -+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

This is one of the few things we agree. There needs to be some incentive for dealers to support EVs after sale. I know Nissan have to let me use their dealer facilities, but they are not making it easy.

"Incentivizing dealers" is code for financial rewards for selling cars. I think the after market stuff will come with time but if you are looking to Nissan dealers for charging, you are doing it wrong.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

--

  Rick C. 

  -++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging 
  -++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Nissan dealers are reasonable enough to provide free level 2 and sometimes fast charging. But they do have to prevent other branded cars from using them.