OT: Indemnification

A few years ago I noticed that many web sites require indemnification as a part of their terms and conditions for using the site. I looked up just what that really meant and in essence it means you are insuring them for their losses as stated in the agreement. That wouldn't be so bad as long as it was limited to something you were responsible for, but often the clause is worded so broadly that literally any loss could be claimed as relating to your use of their web site. They go further and include as covered all of their employees, officers and nearly any other company that has a business relationship with them.

So there became a few web sites I didn't use because I didn't feel like opening myself up to the liability even if it was a very small risk.

More recently I have read the electronic terms and conditions on devices. They have similar waivers of liability, but now I found one that has an indemnification clause as well. So every time I turn on the GPS receiver in my car I am required to provide liability insurance to Garmin. I am considering returning the unit to the store.

Yes, I know there is only a small risk that this clause would ever be needed. But the consequences could be enormous. For example, I could be in an auto accident and knowing that only a limited amount of money could be extracted from me, they could name Garmin in the suit claiming that the GPS was somehow connected with the accident. At that point, even if we prevail and no money is recovered by the plaintiffs, Garmin could require me to compensate them for their legal expenses. Likely I would have a very hard time covering that. Should the plaintiffs win their claim, the result could easily be that I am bankrupted by this. Plaintiffs are much more likely to win when the defendant is a company compared to an individual with limited resources.

Has anyone else given any thought to the seeming pervasive requirement for indemnification?

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Rick
Reply to
rickman
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These kind of "agreements" contain all kinds of nonsense. It doesn't matter what they claim, it matters what they can convince a court to uphold.

As an alternative, you could take responsibility to not drive off a mountain or into a building just because the GPS said you should. That's all Garmin is trying to defend against.

Ultimately it's a sign of a seriously sick society that companies need to make these sorts of waivers.

Live in a country where the lawyers aren't out of control, maybe? If you don't trust your courts to do justice, it should be an option you consider.

Clifford Heath.

Reply to
Clifford Heath

I don't know what country you live in, but I think they have lawyers everywhere. I recall seeing one indemnification clause which included a breach of the T&C or an "alleged" breach of the T&C. lol

As I said, I don't think the risk of ever having to deal with this to be very great, but like living next door to a nuke plant, it doesn't need to be a very great risk since the potential consequences are so large. That is the reason we wear seatbelts. Each time you drive your car there is little risk of being in an accident, but if you are the harm can be very great.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

Garmin would first have to convince a court that the indemnification clause actually formed part of the contract of sale. I doubt they'd get very far with that.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

By reading this post you agree to pay me $1M. And a pony.

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John Devereux
Reply to
John Devereux

AFAIK, only the USA considers suing people as a national sport, and only in the USA do you pick targets based on the depth of their pockets rather than their responsibility for the incident in question. In Europe, Garim would be laughed out of court if they tried to enforce such a clause against you - as would the person suing Garmin in the first place. IANAL, of course.

The risk from living next door to a nuclear power station is tiny compared to the risk of living next door to a coal power station.

Reply to
David Brown

In more sensible places, the loser of litigation pays the costs of the other side's lawyers, so pursuing merit-less litigation has a serious financial downside.

Sylvia.

Reply to
Sylvia Else

Garmin wouldn't dare do that. All their other customers would flee.

Reply to
John Larkin

With a son-in-law, now a judge, but for 25 years a prosecutor, whose forte in law school was contracts, I've gleaned a few tidbits...

(1) A contract must be beneficial in both directions, otherwise it's baloney and will be tossed out by the court.

(2) However, if you (defying Garmin's admonition) are setting a destination while in motion and cause a collision, _you_ are responsible, not Garmin. So, if your victim sues Garmin, you lose (as you should). ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142     Skype: skypeanalog  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
                        #BringBackOurBalls
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I occasionally get a contract for work with the word "indemnify" in it. I just return the contract with the word scratched out.

I'm not an insurance company, so I don't provide it.

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Tim Wescott 
Wescott Design Services 
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Reply to
Tim Wescott

I sign any that indemnify _me_ ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142     Skype: skypeanalog  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

It's the people that live far away from a nuclear power station that are at risk from a catastrophic accident like happened in Fukushima.

[snip>
Reply to
joe hey

y

Since the user is not suing the manufacturer directly, the only remote cost they can claim is third party legal cost. They would have to spell it out in the sale contract, if even enforceable. Third Party Indemnification fo r legal cost is sure way to drive customers away.

Reply to
edward.ming.lee
[snip]
[snip]

What a pile of eco-do-do ...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson | mens | | Analog Innovations | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: skypeanalog | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at

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| 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Reply to
Jim Thompson

We are currently lobbying for this to be an Olympic sport. So look for your country to form an Olympic team of lawyers soon!

and only

Yes, you are *not* a lawyer.

Are you confusing the risk vs. the consequence? Maybe you should consult the many thousands of people impacted by both Chernobyl and Fukishima? Just two accidents over the many, many reactors in use for many years, but each one had huge consequences. Coal plants may have risk of killing people from pollution, but each plant does not hurt so many people.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

I don't see why not. In several states laws have been passed that make the terms and conditions for web sites enforceable even if you never read them. The Garmin GPS requires you to acknowledge them before you can use the unit.

I have been told that the web site indemnification might not stand up if challenged in court. But you first have to go to court, not an inexpensive action. Just being sued means you have lost in some degree.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

Garmin wouldn't do what? I know for a fact they require you to accept their terms and conditions which include indemnification. The unit is sitting beside me until I return it to the store. First thing I saw when I turned it on was the T&C which you have to say you have read and accepted before you can use the Garmin device. Just like on web sites, hardly anyone reads this stuff.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

you have to both into account, kill 1000 every year, vs. kill 100000 every 100 years

-Lasse

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

What exactly does it say on the screen?

Reply to
edward.ming.lee

What I meant is that they wouldn't sue you because you don't have insurance, or for any other use of their product.

If you used their GPS to help rob a bank, or to tresspass somewhere, they just don't want to be liable. Return it if you want to, but your actual risk is nil. It's just stupid lawyer-talk.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com 
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Reply to
John Larkin

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