-- If climbing the Himalayas was something that I\'d have to do to save my life and you knew that, and refused to tell me because you thought I wasn\'t "fitted for" it, then that doesn\'t sound like respect to me, it smacks of you taking it upon yourself to make decisions which should be mine to make.
"John Fields" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
But I don't know if climbing the Himalaya will save you.
If I did that, I would think I wouldn't give a rat's ass and wouldn't mind seeing you fall flat on your face. While this was just an example, I actually think that climbing the Himalaya is not a good advice for a person of your age (and mine too ;)) I would certainly try, as diplomatic as possible, to change the plan and go out on a fishing trip, which can be great fun btw.
Yes, but when someone tries a dangerous thing and it all fucks up, you would be the first to one to give them the Darwin Award. Come on, be honest ;)
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
My position is still the same. If a patient has a positive attitude, I will do nothing to change that. If they have chosen to fight, all by *themselves*, then that's just fine.
Indeed, all the more reason to be cautious with good advice.
Listen up buddy. I *NEVER* said that you should approach them with a "you're gonna die" attitude. I simply say - and *NOTHING* more - that when a situation is very grim, you should *not* tell them that "fighting" will improve their chances greatly.
Exactly - that's is precisely what I mean.
Read what I write, and don't add things that aren't there.
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
You can always tell them to try to survive until a cure is found, there are quite a few very promising therapies and developments in the pipeline:
Jefferson Scientists Reveal New Mechanism That Causes Spread of Colorectal Cancer
Great strides in enzyme inhibitor development have been made as a result of AIDS drug treatment development.
Here's another:
New device could cut chemotherapy deaths
A new method of delivering chemotherapy to cancer patients without incurring side effects such as hair loss and vomiting is being developed.
schreef in bericht
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+0200, "Frank Bemelman"Fields" schreef in bericht
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+0200, "Frank Bemelman"Bloggs" schreef in bericht
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paradigm of "fighting"
to a higher plane of
*placebosomething really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or
nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer
severity can be cured this way, but the patient
pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or
saint.
floor...
convinced
without even _trying_ to fight.
make my point strongly enough.
it wasn't for people
resistance is
that
plenty that "fight" their asses off, and die. If the
their own, that is perfectly all right.
they were told to do so,
enough.
having "fought" hard enough.
a good chance of
by
the chances are extremely grim, don't ask for the
for themselves if they want to
meanted
you
of respect, I will not ask you to do something you're clearly
-- If climbing the Himalayas was something that I\'d have to do to save my life and you knew that, and refused to tell me because you thought I wasn\'t "fitted for" it, then that doesn\'t sound like respect to me, it smacks of you taking it upon yourself to make decisions which should be mine to make.
Let the professionals handle it:
And specifically for colon cancer:
Trials are always an option...
I suppose the proper terminology is inspiration. There is a difference between inspiring a patient to give it their best, and demanding a knock down and drag out fight type of effort:
-- But you\'re not the judge, the jury, or no matter how much you might like to be, the executioner.
"John Fields" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
Why do you say nasty things like I would want to be an executioner? I simply consider the chances of recovering from lung/liver cancer very poor. Statistics back me up on this belief.
I *NEVER* said that one should advice a patient to do nothing. I only said that *WHEN CHANCES ARE DIM* one should not give the patient the impression that "fighting" as in putting will power into the game makes a big difference, because IMO it doesn't. Frankly, I'm getting a bit upset about my words being twisted.
Okay, I think differently. Their role (attitude), in my opinion, talking about severe kinds of cancer, is minimal.
You're still not reading what I'm telling over and over again. I would not recommend them to "fight" the ubeatable battle, and I would *ALSO* not advice them to give up. Let them decide for themselves.
A request. Read the last paragraph 20 times.
Not that much out of context as you might thought it was. Demanding/expecting from (severe) cancer patients to recover by giving them (well meanted) unrealistic advice/goals/mantra's puts a too large load on their shoulder. There is an undeniable large group of patients that will not survive, no matter what happens. You aren't helping them a bit with mindless peptalk that surviving is possible. So don't do it. Remember, there's no need to tell they're going to die either; that is no help either. Stay neutral. Of cource, when asked for, you can shout off all you ridiculous thoughts.
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
"Fred Bloggs" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com...
pipeline:
Right, that's at least something else than a mindless mantra "You can do it". BTW, there are some pretty good medicines to suppress some of the side effects such as vomiting. And of cource, new methods are always on the horizon, but what counts is what is proven and available.
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
Nor did I say you said that. You are twisting what was said. But *you* do have the attitude that they are going to die, and when you visit them, they see that "you're gonna die" attitude. You look at the situation as grim. How is that helpful to the patient? And I ask again, do you think the patient is unaware of your negative outlook?
Where in the thread do you see someone who said you *should* tell them to fight? You argue against a point no one has made. Your position precludes encouraging them to fight, because
*you* judge the situation grim. You seem to think that we "make" the patient think one way or another. Quoting you:"A few messages ago I said: "Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an insult to make patients believe this is an important factor, almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true looser."
End quote.
Frank, you haven't got a f****ng clue. Take care of some dying people. Learn. Yes - they are going to die, but you can make a huge difference encouraging them to fight. When you can get them to take just one more spoonful of sherbet it assists with dehydration and makes them more comfortable. That one more spoonful is fighting. When you can encourage them to let you brush their hair to look pretty, and they allow it, that's fighting. When you tell them they have to shave (meaning, allow you to shave them) that's fighting. "You should try to eat a little more", "would some ice cream taste good to you?", "can I roll you to the window?", "time for your sponge bath" and a thousand more are all cases of encouraging fighting that will make them more comfortable.
Screw the grim outlook. Encourage and assist whatever effort they can make. You are not *dictating* to them. You are not telling them they must fight to cure the disease. But you do tell them they must eat/drink more to be a little more comfortable when that is appropriate, and that is fighting. And you do tell them that they must bathe, when that is appropriate. And you tell them they should try to look good by shaving or brushing their hair or whatever.
Each case is individual, and to make a blanket statement that they should not be told that fighting will improve their chances greatly is ludicrous, as would be a blanket statement that they should be encouraged to fight. No one in the thread has made the latter statement. You've made the former as applied to the situation where there is no medical hope of survival.
Your attitude screams from what you write, and has been seen and mentioned by others. Perhaps you don't see it in yourself. But it is clear that you're talking about cases that are, in your opinion, hopeless. That is the attitude to hide, along with whatever other negatives it engenders.
Ed
Then why are you so upset?
Why didn't you quote this:
Thanks. I don't need your kind of wisdom.
[snip]-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
-- If the stupidity accompanying the danger was monumental enough to make the danger invisible, then I agree. But, for instance, flying the space shuttle is dangerous and has been totally fucked more than once, but I wouldn\'t hand out Darwin Awards to those astronauts who lost their lives.
Nobody has commented on the _oscillator_ ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
"John Fields" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
Not yet ;)
-- Thanks, Frank. (remove \'q\' and \'.invalid\' when replying by email)
-- Seems the OP changed the subject early-on... ;)
I am not upset. But it is clear you have no ability to support what you have said with facts, so you engage in diversion.
Ed
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