Oscillator

Hello John,

Absolutely.

BTW, among the 'other' cancers there was lung cancer (survived, so far) and also esophageal cancer. The latter is considered fatal in 90%+ of cases yet that patient is in her 5th year now. Very strong will-power. Ok, the esophagus and stomach are gone but since she lived almost vegetarian anyway it didn't change her diet too much, just no hard stuff anymore. It also comes with the burden of remaining seriously underweight but otherwise she picked up all of her previous activities.

Regards, Joerg

Hello David,

Well, you can't. For me (personally) it's a matter of faith. For others it's a matter of just not giving up, no matter what. Or both.

Of course I cannot speak for anybody who had cancer since I never went through that myself. But from seeing many others go through it I observed some things. For example, when you drive them to appointments where they will hear intermediate results (happens very often in leukemia cases) some are worried sick the whole trip. They stare at the dashboard and you can't strike up any decent conversation. Others hop in the car and either say "I'll just have to take it one step at a time, no matter what the doc says today" or "It's in God's hands anyway". After that, it's a conversation just like with someone who isn't sick. Yeah, they'll still worry at times but it doesn't consume their mind.

Sometimes worry comes in phases and can be eased, big time. We had quite a number of breast cancer cases in the neighborhood and at my former workplace. Lots of despair. Then their faces lit up when they saw strangers walking in with several pots of delicious meals every day when they were too weak from chemo. Most of them had never experienced this level of support and it really changed them, and their attitude towards the disease. So did their families. Even when the patient didn't make it all this lasted, there was a purpose in it.

Regards, Joerg

"John Fields" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

A few messages ago I said: "Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an insult to make patients believe this is an important factor, almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true looser."

If "fighting" is just doing what the doctor proposes, I say you're right. If "fighting" means the usual pep talk "You can do it", I say no. And I say that in the context of what started this thread; a person with an extremely severe form/stage of cancer.

If you don't treat breast cancer, it will kill the patient. If you do treat it, and the treatment was not started too late, there is a great chance of succes. In such case, it's okay to tell a person to "fight" (as in showing will power etc), because there is very good chance of succes. Now, if a person has a more agressive kind cancer like throat/lung/colon/liver cancer or a combination of that, the chances are pretty grim if not next to nothing. You can have all the will power in the world, but it is not going to help you. To tell someone it is all a matter of "fighting" it, is a shameless lie.

My view anyway.

"Joerg" schreef in bericht news:NTjXf.10737$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

Okay, she fell in the group of 10%. How can you be so sure it is due to her strong will power? Did the other 90% of similar patients not have enough will power?

Do breast cancer patients have stronger will power than lung cancer patients? Applying your logic, they must have, looking at the statistics of survival for these kinds of cancer.

For starters, it makes a great difference if a lung cancer can be operated or not. This largely depends on the location of the tumor. If it is *not* operable, you have to be damn "lucky" to survive another two years - one year is more likely.

But if you insist that (severe) patients are helped by fairy tales and need to be told it is all a matter of will power and prayers, continue with your important mission. I strongly wonder if it is something to be proud of; I would be deeply ashamed of such dishonesty.

If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has befriended a living saint.

"Fred Bloggs" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com...

But how large is that group? They seem to dissappear in the noise floor...

Sickening isn't it.

Most victims are very old and it's their time to go anyway- they don't have much time left even without the cancer.

"John Fields" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

to

Hello Frank,

The ones I knew who had emotionally given up are all dead by now, from the group that fought it some are dead and some are remarkably well.

Frank, now you are twisting my arguments. Let's not go there.

Sure. But there is a huge difference in what you can achieve in that year or two. You can sit on the couch in self-pity. Then you may not even exercise anymore (saying "what good does it do" or whatever), quit eating well and so on. This will increase your misery. Or, you can go out there and do good works and feel as a contributor to society. Big difference.

One of the striking examples was a California politician. He was on the other side of my political convictions but I admired him, still do. Robert Matsui told the public that he had a cancer that would destroy his red blood cells and there really isn't a cure. He just kept going, made sure his affairs and those of his constituents were in order and after he passed away his wife Doris was elected into that office. Also a remarkable woman.

Some people cannot emotionally deal with it all. If they want to they can get help. That is one of the ministries we provide around here and it costs nothing. Except gasoline for the car and time but the caregivers (all volunteers) provide that.

We'll never agree on this. I am with Jim, John and others. You have a different opinion, and that's ok.

Regards, Joerg

It ain't over until its over! Curing cancer is a long process and its not a pleasant one, but a 33 year old person should have a decent chance. Good luck to you and your son.

Sometimes I eat too much. When my stomage starts to protest I have two options: tell myself I'm not sick or don't and vomit... The mind is in control over the body. The best example is sexual arrousel. Someone with a positive attitude will feel much better than someone with a negative attitude. Does this cure cancer? No, but it helps a little if it means the person eats and drinks enough.

I have nothing against positive attitudes. I am not saying that there is any need to depress cancer patients, on the contrary. Do whatever it takes to cheer them up. But don't tell 'm cheap lies like they can battle their way out by showing will power or similar crap. Let them decide for themselves what they throw in.

Trying to convince patients that will power is an important ingredient will only make them feel guilty for not performing well enough when things turn for the worse. They certainly don't deserve that. It is not their fault.

Humans are a strange species. If we see someone struggle with 6 bags trying to open a door, we jump up to offer some help. If we see a cancer patient struggling, we do nothing and chant "You can do it".

We all know what happens with children who have overly demanding parents.

"John Fields" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

then

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There are plenty that "fight" their asses off, and die. If the choice to "fight" is their own, that is perfectly all right. But if they are only fighting because they were told to do so, it leaves them with the guilt of not performing well enough. They might feel that they have dissapointed their loved ones, by not having "fought" hard enough.

If there is a statistic figure that indicates a good chance of recovering (like walking again after broken knee caps) then by all means tell a patient to "fight" for his or her recovery.

But if the chances are extremely grim, don't ask for the impossible. Let them decide for themselves if they want to fight or not. They are not helped with our well meanted advice.

For instance, if there was any reason for it, I would ask you to climb on the roof of your house, but never to climb the Himalaya. Out of respect, I will not ask you to do something you're clearly not fitted for.

Also, if you told me that you intend to climb the roof of your house, I'd say "You can do it". If you told me that you intend to climb the Himalaya, I'd say "Yeah, nice, let's go fishing instead.". Again, out of respect. I don't enjoy seeing people fall flat on their face, well, not often anyway.

What do you think?

;)

"John Fields" schreef in bericht news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Right - if the chances are poor. I consider the chances of recovering from lung/liver cancer very poor.

The coroner can wait. Make life as pleasant as possible in the meantime.

Telling them that their role is of no influence is extremely below the belt. Telling them that their role is of great influence is extremely below the belt too.

After the first diagnoses, xrays and scans, it is often quite clear what a patients chances are. The overall statistics for lung cancer may show 10% that survives the first 5 years, but after the first few rounds in hospital a doctor can already tell if someone is a good candidate for the 10% of survivers or not.

And so it is in my book. If the situation is grim, don't tell them that fighting makes all the diffence, but don't tell 'm either that it doesn't. Let them decide for themselves. Don't tell them what you possibly can't know.

Give hope, but not false hope.

Why do you say that? Do you feel a desire to insult me or my parents? My parents weren't very demanding, more like supporting.

You have subtly twisted your position from your original on this. You originaly said (paraphrasing) that in your opinion fighting had little to do with their chance of survival. Then you talked about your message being between the lines.

Now you take a position that presumes that those you argue with are forcing the "fight" viewpoint on the patient. I don't think anyone (other than you) is talking about that. The idea is to encourage the patient. Your defeatest attitude gets in the way of that. What makes you think the patient doesn't see that in you? You assume that because they have cancer in their body somewhere that there ability to perceive and to think is suddenly eradicated?

Sheesh! We all start out with a death sentence. That is no reason to withold encouragement or to be defeatest. And I know you did not espouse the position of witholding encouragement. But when you - the acquaintance of the person with the disease - treat it with a "you're gonna die" attitude, do you think that is helpful? You think the patient is unaware of your negative outlook?

Encouraging the patient is not a matter of "you're going to make it". Just be a friend. Talk to them about things they enjoy, about events that happen to you, about their family, about movies and books and TV shows and sports and whatever you normally talk about. Ask them if you can make them more comfortable, ask them how they are doing. Do whatever it takes to be a pleasant spot in their day. And hide that damn attitude.

Ed

Let them