Jim Marshall, RIP

In days of expensive tubes, adding some extra open loop gain would have been expensive, thus only mild negative feedback was used. The tubes are reasonable linear, having similar distortion properties and microphones and speakers in those days.

The whole reproduction chin had a nice S-shaped transfer function, reducing the gain gradually, when the signal amplitude was increased, thus acting as a gently compressor. Thus, short amplitude peaks due to adding two or more tones, was gradually attenuated, but general appearance was maintained.

With not so linear transistors, but with a lots of cheap open loop gain available, the obvious solution was to use a lot of negative feedback to have a stable closed loop gain and thus a large linear region. Everything works fine, until the available voltage range (typically the rail to rail voltage) is reached, after which, any peaks are hard clipped, causing nasty high order harmonics.

When two or more pure tones are added, short high amplitude peaks are produced, even when the average output voltage remains the same. Thus the peak to average increases with added tones.

In order to avoid nasty clipping distortion, the transistor amplifier must have so large peak to peak output voltage range that it never clips.

With a tube amplifier, the short and high peaks can be gently compressed, without causing too much discomfort (and some even prefer signals distorted in this way), thus the input voltage can be increased, increasing the average power output.

To exaggerate a bit, a transistor amplifier should be dimensioned according to the peak power, while a tube amplifier can be dimensioned closer to the average power. Thus, a 30 W tube amplifier can sound as well as a 100-200 W transistor amplifier.

Reply to
upsidedown
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snipped-for-privacy@downunder.com

** Major fallacy.

The main limitation on the use of NFB was always the OP tranny.

** Completely WRONG !!

** Only true of tape recorders.

** Exactly the same goes for any hi-fi tube amp.

YOU are a posturing, bullshit spewing f****it.

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Note how the child conveniently left out the "guitar" modifier for "amp".

Reply to
IAmTheSlime

Holy shit, someone here knows the truth...

How'd that happen? ;-) Scope a good distorted guitar signal, and you're gonna see something pretty close to a fuzzy square wave. Odd-order harmonics out the wazoo. Tone is square, man.

Lord Valve Tube Dood

Reply to
Lord Valve

It isn't the output stages they are overdriving, its the input (class A) preamp stage.

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Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
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Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

it depends on the amp.

-- Les Cargill

Reply to
Les Cargill

Yup. I'm hard-pressed to think of a configuration where the _input_ gets overdriven... having built a number of toob amplifiers in my youth: 2A3, 6V6, 6L6, KT66, KT88 (using Ultralinear transformer).

At 18, I built my first "solid-state" amplifier using Delco Germanium, but went back to the KT88.

At 22 I had access to Motorola silicon power devices, and built my first 30W stereo.

Having played in orchestra, I prefer the cleanness of solid state. ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson, CTO                            |    mens     |
| Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             |
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  |
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Reply to
Jim Thompson

Hi Jim,

The input stage on a "master volume" amp like the JCM800 is pretty much "made" to distort. Look at the lower schematic here:

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The high-impedance input goes into three gain stages, but the amp's negative feedback loop doesn't include them; it only encompasses the output stage and the long-tail phase inverter. It's really easy to overdrive the input stage on an amp like this - later tube amps from other manufacturers are similar in that the "lead" channel always has a massive amount of gain outside of the feedback loop.

Reply to
bitrex

"Paul Hovnanian P.E."

** Complete CRAP !!

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

ll

)

He's talking about the classic 1972 Russell Hamm paper. Although Hamm sprinkles allusions to power amps throughout the paper, he's only talking about the single-ended amps found in mixing consoles.

A copy of the Hamm paper is archived here:

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Reply to
spamtrap1888

"spamtrap1888"

He's talking about the classic 1972 Russell Hamm paper.

** Like hell he is.

A copy of the Hamm paper is archived here:

formatting link

** Complete load of drivel based on a mindless fallacy.

Transient clipping and steady state overload with sine waves are NOT comparable.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

I see why you're having trouble. "Unprecedented" means "never before known or experienced." It does not mean simply "greater* in magnitude."

HTH.

HAND.

(*Just a guess, I admit. Who knows what this guy thinks "unprecedented" means?)

Reply to
spamtrap1888

I'm not saying he got it right. Let me say that "the root of all such tube distortion ideas is a poorly understood yet frequently cited paper by Russell Hamm."

I agree that Hamm's experiments, such as they are, are poorly thought out and the paper is poorly written. Hamm justifies the assumption based on

  1. Playing with a synthesizer,
  2. An unsupported assertion regarding a floor tom, and
  3. Someone else's experimental evidence of the rise time of staccato trumpet notes.
Reply to
spamtrap1888

"spamtrap1888"

I see why you're having trouble. "Unprecedented" means "never before known or experienced." It does not mean simply "greater* in magnitude."

** " Unprecedented" is a versatile word with numerous meanings - one of which is greater in magnitude than seen previously.

Eg: " Crime has increased on an unprecedented scale ".

Tom Davenport's article is just as full of hyperbole as it is full of bullshit.

... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Watch a guitar player drive an amp into distortion. They crank up the pickup control (on the guitar) and set the volume with the amp control. The amp volume pot usually follows the first tube stage, which is what they drive into clipping.

One (rather obvious) indication of how this works is that its possible to get a distortion effect at rather low amplifier volume levels. If the distortion were due to output clipping, the amplitude needed would be constant and high.

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Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
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Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

"Paul Hovnanian P.E."

** Bullshit.

What mostly happens is the volume control is used to set the degree of overdrive in the output stage - guitarists call this "sustain".

** No-one playing at a gig wants this - the amps are used at full power and competing with each other.
** I see you have NEVER been to a real live rock gig.

Only by overdriving the output stages and the speakers can the desired sound be got.

.... Phil

Reply to
Phil Allison

Sustain is not the same as distortion. Guitar players can sustain a note without distorting it. Or vice versa.

The days of the big Marshall stacks are dead. They were dead when I was in college. Guitar players use smaller dedicated amps and mic them through a PA system. So the sound engineer can control the mix with his board.

I played in a band for many years.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
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Reply to
Paul Hovnanian P.E.

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