Interesting/promising measurements at CERN

Dark matter is real enough from the observed effects. What it is made of is unknown. Attempts to detect it have so far found nothing at all. I have been lucky enough to visit one of the experiments in the deepest European mine. The near freefall lift descent is impressive particularly as the rush of air from the other car goes past.

Until a couple of decades ago you could have hidden dark matter as any old non-luminous ordinary matter - biros & chair legs were an in joke. But multispectral imaging has got too good. It has to be something that really doesn't interact electromagnetically much if at all.

I am less happy about dark energy but its influence is also observed. Clear evidence for that emerged after my involvement in the field.

Whilst as an astronomer I would obviously prefer big telescopes and planetary probes. I don't see all that much wrong with high energy physics as an area of research.

What they are doing in colliders closely mimics conditions in the early stages of the big bang. It may yet lead to important new physics - only time will tell. The unkind analogy is that it is like trying to understand clocks by smashing them together at ever greater speeds.

I found HEP and particle physics a bit too much like stamp collecting for my taste. There was an obligatory part 2 course on it. YMMV.

Blue sky research has a very long lead time before it shows what it can do. I remember seeing the world's first organic semiconductor a grey black slime with a very short useful life. Now Oleds are everywhere.

The gravitational wave detectors are also in the big science budget along with the next generation of space telescope. You never really know what you are going to find until they come on stream.

Reply to
Martin Brown
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And WAIS.

In 1993 I bought a book outlining all the interesting mechanisms out there; the web was only one chapter. When I mentioned the web & browser to the librarian at HPLabs Bristol, he was already investigating it, and a couple of months later I could find what was new on the web by looking at the web's homepage:

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Foolishly I threw that book out as being "obsolete".

Reply to
Tom Gardner

OK, not 'colliders', but certainly particle accelerator physics; either mass spectroscopy or calutrons (which are cyclotrons) employ the same ion source and beam forming tech as other accelerators. It's the same physics.

Reply to
whit3rd

Oh, there are many.

Faraday famously told the sceptical chancellor of the exchequer that "One day, sir, you may tax it".

I like the observation that it seems to take about half a century for fundamental research to appear in many people's everyday life.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

Beam current is typically under a mA at under 10kV. Calutrons were a bit more beefy but there are limitations on what their target can stand.

Synchrotron light beam wiggler light sources are probably the highest energy application of HEP technology and are now up in the 7GeV range.

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My former physics supervision partner is one of the grey beards who keeps that thing running - a remarkable experimentalist.

Reply to
Martin Brown

Famously Ernest Rutherford who initially was one of the pioneers of transmitting radio waves was persuaded to abandon that "unimportant" work for the new hot topic of radioactivity. He held the world record for radio transmission range at one point but was later outdone by Marconi.

Reply to
Martin Brown

So how do you find out what protons are build of in one or many smaller projects.

Reply to
Dimiter_Popoff

Of course the quote is extreme, just useful to make the point that we don't know what will come out of fundamental research and that there is no replacement for doing it.

Reply to
Dimiter_Popoff

Not having a better option - what can they do... Then if they have the instruments to take detailed enough snapshots of all the cogs and wheels flying around after the smash who knows, may be it will be telling enough :).

Dimiter

Reply to
Dimiter_Popoff

It is quite unusual for peer review to filter out something that is a real step forwards. It does happen and there are examples but they are quite rare. It does filter out a lot of the junk though.

The flat Earthers get short shrift in academic journals.

Observations show that there is something holding galaxies together that we cannot see. Plenty of people have tried other explanations. Dark matter (as in not electromagnetically interacting) is the least worst option to explain it right now. Something better may come along...

String theory is very much a minority interest. It might lead somewhere but there are not that many people working on it and their experiments only require pencil, paper and the odd supercomputer.

Sometimes the mainstream status quo gets overthrown spectacularly by observational evidence as happened to Hoyle's Steady State Universe by the new upstart that he disparagingly christened The Big Bang.

The old guard for Steady State never really accepted defeat though.

Except that it isn't. Young turks are actively encouraged to publish anything that will stand up to scrutiny and challenge the status quo. They tend to be armed with the very latest mathematical tools.

Some of the biggest results in science are null result experiments. Michelson-Morely (ether drift) and Eotvos (equivalence) for example.

Reply to
Martin Brown

Proton beams, used for cancer and other tumour treatment, are in the 70

- 250 MeV range. If technology advances from big physics lead to the sizes and prices of even higher energy beams down enough, they will happily use GeV to get better treatments.

All sorts of benefits come from pushing technology and inventing new solutions. This applies to many big projects, like space exploration as well as particle physics. Generally it is not possible to predict them, and like all scientific results and technological progress, mostly you have one invention or achievement building on another over time and in different areas, rather than single dramatic breakthroughs.

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Reply to
David Brown

Grin, Don't believe all the press hype you read. I'm willing to bet this is not any 'new' physics, It will be noise, systematic error, or a piece of the theory someone forgot to include... But heck I'm all for them finding a fifth force or whatever. I just don't think it is likely.

I read "Introduction to Cosmology" By Barbara Ryden over the winter. A nice undergrad intro to the subject. George H.

Reply to
George Herold

A lot (but very far from everything) is known about how dark matter is distributed, and the effects it has on other matter. All we know about what it /is/, however, is limited to several things that we know it is not.

Dark energy is a lot more nebulous. I am not at all convinced that it is a "thing" at all - I suspect that it will "disappear" once a more refined theory of space-time and gravity is developed. (The fact that it is reasonably to have opinions or speculations like this shows how far dark energy research currently is from being a scientific theory.)

However, the only way to learn more is to do more research into the fundamental physics. And who knows what else will come out of it? Much of the electronics we use today exists because of our knowledge of quantum mechanics, which was discovered by the high energy physics folks. Maybe dark matter will give us a new way to make non-volatile memory, and dark energy will let us have high-bandwidth wifi between countries.

Reply to
David Brown

Hi David, No insult intended, but I think you have that backwards. Lamda (dark energy) is pretty well entrenched in cosmology... (not that it couldn't change again in a generation.)

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Dark matter-- "meh", George H.

Reply to
George Herold

The next generation ring at CERN is estimated to cost 21 billion euros, probably an underestimate. It may not discover anything fundamental and will certainly not discover anything useful.

The NASA budget is bloated too. The ISS is another useless money sink, as is more footprints on the moon.

Reply to
John Larkin

I don't think so. The energy is carefully chosen to adjust the penetration depth. Most of the energy is deposited just before the particles come to a halt. (See "Bragg peak".)

Jeroen Belleman

Reply to
Jeroen Belleman

A curious assertion. If it only "may" not discover anything fundamental, how can John Larkin be certain that it won't discover anything useful?

In John Larkin's ever-so-expert opinion.

Then again, John Larkin thought that Donald Trump was doing a good job as president. 500,000 US dead from Covid-19. I wonder how many US citizens would have had to have died before John might have conceded that Trump's performance might have been improved upon.

Reply to
Bill Sloman

Come, come. We may even buy a few Highland Technology gadgets to help make it run. ;-)

It's certainly fascinating. Maybe mining asteroids will make you change your mind? I, for one, would like to see the price of precious metals come down. It's such a pity to just hoard them. There are lots of useful applications for a bit of gold or platinum.

Jeroen Belleman

Reply to
Jeroen Belleman

Fair enough.

Greater energy would allow more precision and focused damage to the bit you want to hit, which is the advantage of using protons rather than gamma rays. But I suppose that to get higher energies they'd have to use bigger "bullets" than protons, which would mean a significant big step in the technology. (You would need a /lot/ higher energy to make a helium nucleus penetrate the depths you wanted.)

Reply to
David Brown

Reply to
Tom Gardner

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