Huawei launches Kirin 980 processor, the world's first commercial 7nm SoC

Why does a phone processor need 7 billion transistors?

Given the development cost, the speed improvements are really modest.

Design and mask costs for one 7 nm chip are estimated to run as high as a billion dollars.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

C

Globalfoundries just cancelled their 7nm process

Not many chips justify all that development cost. Memory maybe.

Moore's Law may end not because of the device physics, but because of design cost.

And maybe production cost: an EUV scanner costs something like $150 million and uptime is mediocre.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

Uptime can't be predicted from prototypes. It matters, too, how many

7nm processors fit on a wafer, and how many wafers per hour...

Skipping a generation makes sense if synchrotron radiation and suitable masks can be better throughput somehow, while EUV's cost and complexity can bog down the competition. For sure, the technology of synchrotron soft Xray sources is a few decades ahead of EUV. I was seeing 80% or better uptime in the 1980s...

On a sunny day (Sat, 08 Sep 2018 22:08:30 -0700) it happened John Larkin wrote in :

Nice article.

Wide busses, memory, cache, neural processor. The Chinese are really good at image recognition it seems. They use it on a big scale to find criminals by processing camera pictures in railway stations for example.

As to the political side, a strong one party system that guides is probably better than a divided reps-dems chaos wasting time on political bickering while the countries infrastructure falls apart as in the US, and the population gets more and more divided. They (The Chinese) would never allow crap to be made at public expense as much of US military does now sucking taxpayer money (F35 ..). They would never allow advertising for .. shoes linked to people who oppose the main line, order.

Anyways, whatever way you look at it, they have to strike back against 'tariffs' imposed by you local reality show leader, They invest in a big way in technology, and really, US is now even more at the losing end in that race. Given the choice (I am not really into smartphones, only have an old android), but as their skill progresses I would most certainly (and have already been looking for) buy a big fast PC with a Chinese processor.

Longer battery life, and most important 'better than the US competition' is a seller, People compare. I have a Huawei modem, and am very happy with it, been using it for years (USB G3 plugin for my laptop), and it works every time.

It is the dollars they made selling better cheaper faster to the world market. Same dollars they use now to get Africa and South America and Australia and Europe, and Russia, and India, and Pakistan basically the whole world apart from N America, in their 'Belt and Road' system. They are way ahead really

Just recently the EU did away with sanctions against China's solar panels.

It is about trade, consumers will be happy, I am, I have a big solar panel here. World free trade, everybody happy.

For you, in the US, with the reality show host in power, everybody will pay more, have less, and be unhappy. Many US companies see the writing on the wall, but what can they do with a dictator in power who only has his own limited world view

I stopped reading US media a while back, it made me sick to read about that idiot every day one way or the other, he just attacks the media to get attention, like a frustrated kid may do to get attention. He is sick, and your country catches that flue.

Clear political point I make (Jedi speak).

On Sunday, September 9, 2018 at 3:57:48 PM UTC+10, snipped-for-privacy@nospam.org w rote:

oC

s in railway stations for example.

ly better than a divided reps-dems chaos wasting time on political bickerin g while the countries infrastructure falls apart as in the US, and the popu lation gets more and more divided.

The US isn't any kind of example of a representative democracy.

It looks democratic, but both halves of the "two-party system" are run by p olitical lobbyists for the benefit of the top 1% of the income distribution , who keep on getting richer, while the rest of the country doesn't see any benefit from the expansion of the economy.

The Chinese Communist Party represents 6.13% of the Chinese population, so it isn't surprising that it looks after more of the population.

European multi-party democracies (which depend on proportional representati on) do a rather better job than either.

much of US military does now sucking taxpayer money (F35 ..).

Perhaps. The Chinese military-industrial complex is no less influential tha n it's US equivalent, and probably just as greedy.

se the main line, order.

ariffs' imposed by you local reality show leader,

t the losing end in that race.

oid), but as their skill progresses I would most certainly (and have alread y been looking for) buy a big fast PC with a Chinese processor.

is a seller.

(USB G3 plugin for my laptop), and it works every time.

rket.

nd Europe, and Russia, and India, and Pakistan basically the whole world ap art from N America, in their 'Belt and Road' system.

.

l here. World free trade, everybody happy.

Except Donald Trump and the voters dumb enough to believe in his version of reality (which changes by the day, but his supporters don't notice).

ay more, have less, and be unhappy.

a dictator in power who only has his own limited world view

at idiot every day one way or the other, he just attacks the media to get a ttention, like a frustrated kid may do to get attention.

Trump isn't sick, just ill-informed, and primarily interested in impressing his supporters, who aren't a discriminating group. John Larkin is a repres entative example.

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Bill Sloman, Sydney

John Doe cried

Russia defeated Germany in WW2 USSR was first in space slaves were part of the US US a war mongering entity, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, bunch of imperialist, now threatening Iran. US is an unreliable business partner, unreliable political partner exiting treaties that took years to make. Over 400 countries with forced regime change since WW2, now trying it in Venezuela. That reality show host just wants 4000 more US soldiers in Europe, seems he noticed he was losing foothold. We will kick them all out when time comes. Wants us to buy more crap US made 'weapons' (toys). Will make war everywhere to increase sales. Poor simplistic people like you being played as a pawn in their game, maybe you get even payed to write your crap here. You work face-hook too perhaps.

And the world is black and white.

Create a common enemy, divert from your internal race - and other problems. Spy one everything everybody everywhere 24/7 paranoia state, corrupt trigger happy police. Drug addicts Polluted water supply Polluted land.

Old ancient over ground power lines, collapsing roads, derailing trains, flooding fires everywhere, huge deficit, deadlocked government, Nobody wants your 'US system'. And you.

I don't think synchrotrons work in production. They are way too big and expensive and power is too low.

The tin droplet EUV thing is the only currently-available source of nm radiation for lithography, and it's still dicey. Eximer lasers have used up the periodic table of possible gasses so are stalled at a bit under 200 nm.

Frequency multipliers, like tripling an eximer, might be interesting, but probably not practial. We may just have to live with 14 nm chips from now on. My flip phone works fine. I don't need bad TV programs in higher resolution.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

Inventions, physical and social, are the products of chaos. Lots of top-down management is a great model for inefficiency and enforcing the status quo.

China has funded gigantic idiotic projects that have done enormous harm to their people. F35 is a pretty good airplane.

Trade deficits can't accumulate forever without consequences.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

C

I guess you are in the same camp with Ken Olsen.

?There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his ho me.?

Obviously you still have not figured out that "cell phones" are really the next thing after the PC and account for more computing power than PCs at th is point with literally billions in circulation.

You must be sorry you can't join the parade. They make many billions of do llars from these designs. How much did you most successful design ever mak e?

Rick C.

Larkin is amazing sometimes. In his mind he defines the needs of the rest of the world. If he only needs a flip phone, the other 85% of the US must be wrong. There is no hint of doubt, not a trace of uncertainty. He knows what is best for all of humanity.

Rick C.

John Larkin wrote

Not so sure about that. If you think the universe is 'chaos' then yes. I do think things just naturally evolve, from electricity and magnetism to electric motors from Hertz waves to radio to now the 5G.

WHEN exactly an invention is made and by whom, is hard to tell, but it has to fit in that flow.

Yes, top-down does make mistakes, OTOH when the political will is there and the engineers are left to do their job then you can build an A-bomb, H-bomb, do a return moon, sky is the limit.

The Chinese population seems to be enormous, yes mistakes are made, always, the ability to correct mistakes is important, sometimes that takes revolutions.

Indeed, you can either inflate it away (a trillion dollars is worth 1 Euro sort of thing), or make products so good and cheap that the whole world wants to give you their money and possessions to get it. (taking out loans with property or land as collateral is selling your land to get that latest hottest new thing). US has sold large parts of itself already, China and Japan hold a large part of US debt, in fact own it indirectly. NONE of the solutions the reality show manager has proposed will fix the deficit. and he could not invent a new product with a gun to his head.

So inflation spook looks at you, and when China and others have spend their dollars to buy influence all around the world and then change to a new world accepted currency, all your banks have is the gold that once was in fort Who Knocks There for any. :-)

7nm is in production now. 5 nm in 2020

That's not possible. Larkin said so!

Rick C.

John Doe wrote in news:pn33u6$tur$1@dont- email.me:

You are a true idiot. China has the current fastest supercopmuter in the world.

You are dumber than dogshit, boy.

SoC

es in railway stations for example.

bly better than a divided reps-dems chaos wasting time on political bickeri ng while the countries infrastructure falls apart as in the US, and the pop ulation gets more and more divided.

Total nonsense. Inventions are the products of more perfect understanding, which is why different people tend to independently produce much the same i nvention at much the same time.

Lots of top-down management doesn't help - they rarely understand what they are doing, or what they are asking their subordinates to do. Intelligent m anagers (and they do exist, though rare) can see when somebody has come up with a good idea, and exploit it.

Chaos doesn't help - in fact it makes it difficult to do what has worked in the past, and and makes it most unlikely that you'll risk trying to do som ething different.

s much of US military does now sucking

I wonder what particular gigantic idiotic project John had in mind.

Chairman Mao had a few bad ideas, but he died in 1976.

So the US should take a look at Germany where a well-trained and well-educa ted work force exports roughly as much as the US despite having only a quar ter of the population.

The US enthusiasm for out-sourcing manufacturing to places where the work f orce gets paid less than US rates is not doing the US economy any good at a ll, and Donald Trump's enthusiasm for protective tariffs isn't going to sol ve the problem.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

John Doe wrote in news:pn33u6$tur$1@dont- email.me:

Alibaba

Biggest company in China started and ran by the richest man in China.

You're an idiot.

Yes, but developing a 7 nm chip can cost a billion dollars, and not many chips justify that.

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John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc 

lunatic fringe electronics

You may as well not have bothered. In the decades following the end of the war, Germany has gone from strength to strength. They lost the war, but were clear winners in the peace. They just exchanged guns and bombs for cars and commerce and today they essentially control continental Europe through political and economic power. But human nature doesn't change and anyone who is foolish enough to believe otherwise is living in cloud-cuckoo land.

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