How does digital TV broadcast prevent ghosting effects?

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No. Digital MAKES the correct packet or it doesn't and it uses whatever it receives to do so. It doesn't pick a signal and cast the others out.

That is called diversity, and I don't think that modern tuners are doing diversity yet. It ain't cheap.

True diversity would use multiple antennas, and THEN the best signal gets chosen.

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I've looked at Samsung and other brands side by side with it, all the way up to $1300. The difference wasn't that great. Very slightly in motion artefacts maybe but definitely nothing to write home about.

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So, what's usually playing in HD these days? Tried it out yesterday, it gets some HD channels, others drop out a lot, and yet others it can't decipher on account of multipath. But all the DTV stuff was standard def. Some of it wide screen though.

The picture is nice and crisp BTW. No complaints here.

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I didn't post this. Learn to quote properly.

HD offerings grow continually.

If it was in wide format over the air, it was HD.

HD starts at 1280 x 720

There is a link in this thread that declares what is and what is not HD. You should give it a read.

I know, however, that over cable signals get compressed, and even though many are wide aspect, few are true HD streams. The dirty bastards!

Sad too, since they fit onto a std 6MHz wide slot, and the cable/satellite twits didn't need to re-compress a goddamned thing, yet the idiots do it anyway.

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Huh? Read again: Sez " snipped-for-privacy@netzero.com wrote:". AFAIK that ain't you.

But it read 480SD in the OSD. When I turned the set to "normal" the format on the digital channel switched a lot depending on what played. News in standard with the black strips left and right, unless I switched to "wide" but then everyone appears overweight.

Well, we have neither cable nor satellite. It's only what's available OTA. I am not a ballgame fan but I'll check this afternoon just to see how HD might look like on this set. Our vicar said the Packers play the Lions (he roots for Detroit) today so hopefully that will be in HD.

BTW, someone mentioned the Sharp Aquos: Costco has the 42" for around $1200 after rebates. Says the ad.

We live in heavy multipath. All I can say so far (after one day) is that we'll seem to be losing some stations in 2009. What happens is one of these:

a. TV doesn't recognize the DTV channel, data probably too messed up. b. TV says something like "Receiving data" but that's it. c. Picture gets blocky or stops at times. IOW not very useful.

Some work well and there I have to say it's nice. There are clearly disadvantages when picture content changes rapidly but heck, there is no free lunch. Shannon said it more scientifically though. Most of the time the DTV picture is really nice (for channels where it works).

On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:49:02 -0800) it happened Joerg wrote in :

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I have heard that US did chose 8VSB because Europe had an other system, and 8VSB would help US industry, as Europe then had the same hurdles to market as the US. That apart, I have terrestial digital too (no more analog here), and its uses 64 QAM, with a FEC of 1/2, so a lot of correction bits, the channels take up 8MHz. Not all of Europe does this, but the Netherlands does. I had a weak signal, and reflections, in analog, perfect reception now in digital, even from stations far away. I have never understood the 8VSB idea other then political.

I have not seen any HDTV over DVB-T here yet, not sure any is planned. But we have plenty over satellite.

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Don't know but I'd think it's more because the sports fans here want their football games in hi-def.

Well, that's where Europe seems to be lagging. I just saw an HD program over the air (not satellite). A dog show, not very interesting, but the picture quality was quite stunning. I just don't see the need for it since standard-def TV is good enough for me.

That's expensive over here since we don't have Astra.

The Vizio set I just bought does a fairly good job here. It did decode a few streams where I was almost sure it wouldn't. But not all because multipath is really bad out here.

Question: How do you find out what's on those digital channels? Ok, I found some via the local station web sites, such as 13.1 or 13.2. But then others are scattered. For example 54.1, 54.2 and 54.4 are listed under KTEH whereas 54.3 is on the KQED web site. The latter is confusing because it is listed as channel 9 out of San Francisco. Our TV guide here turns out not to be very useful because it only lists the analog channels for OTA stations, the rest is all cable and satellite.

Broadcast HDTV was QAM until recently.

On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:07:54 GMT) it happened Joerg wrote in :

DVB-T does not exclude HD, It is even possible to have SD and HDTV on the same carrier, and have the receiver switch to SD if signal becomes really bad, see:

Well Europe is not lagging, we did see already long time ago that satellite is a much more clever way to bring content, only one small transmitter needed up there ;-) The new standards is DVB-S2 (look it up, within 0.7 dB of the Shannon limit, great system:

Lagging is US. It was sort of first with color (NTSC), then Europe got PAL, PAL was better. Then Europe went digital. US also wanted digital, and did chose a lesser system with 8VSB, putting it more in the third world category, as you can also see from the dollar, your current dictator, and your true elections replaced by pre-programmed Republican voting machines ;-) Now that is funny.

Well, you cannot see Astra, it is below the horizon, but if you had not moved so far west you could have. There is not only Astra here though, Hotbirds, many more, the sky is full of sats here, that is why I have a motorised dish.

On the other bright side, in the cities, cable companies can easily pick up the satellite signal, I have heard Netherlands is something like 80% cable.

But seriously, or more seriously, I fail to see the advantages of 8VSB especially in the cities.

There is an other issue too, with digital processing in LCD receivers the picture needs de-interlacing if not transmitted progressive, and that basically reduces the resolution by half. Further losses happen if the TV does not have the same vertical pixels as the transmitted signal, as rescaling causes further loss of detail. I would like to see all content transmitted in 720 or 1080 progressive, there is a EBU recommendation for progressive:

To be honest I don't know much about all the tech details because TV has such low importance for me. But HDTV sure looks nice. Just for fun I watched a documentary in HD about the Rhein/Mosel area in Germany. The images of the castles and strongholds there were stunning (and I know those buildings from close-up). It was almost like looking out the window of a restaurant in Trier. Heck, you could even spot which street lamps they forgot to polish before the camera crew arrived.

The sobering awakening came right afterwards. Clouds rolled in and then multipath gets worse. All but one digital channel collapsed. That's pretty much what I thought all along would happen :-(

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So, then, why don't they use HDTV?

Our system seems not to be adaptive to poor signal quality. DTV is truly digital, either you see stunningly video or nothing at all. In that respect analog is certainly better.

up there ;-)

Same here. However, it's in the hands of companies like Dish Network. IOW not free. OTOH we don't have to pay a TV tax.

great system:

But in your previous post you said HDTV is not seen over there. Is it, or is it not?

Sure, it's usually easier to improve upon a technology than inventing it from scratch. Later NTSC wasn't inferior anymore because they fixed the phase drift problem. The challenge was to do it in a way that the older sets would keep working and that excluded alternating the phase.

Ahm, I guess now you are drifting into propaganda (and I disagree with all points).

so far west you could have.

sats here,

especially in the cities.

Probably to have the capability of extreme resolution but I don't know for sure. In the US football and baseball fans are the ones who drive TV and subscription sales.

picture needs de-interlacing

half.

transmitted signal, as

is a EBU recommendation for progressive:

only half the resolution,

I believe our 1280*720 format is progressive but not sure. Anyhow, I can only judge it as a viewer: The images are absolutely stunning. Until multipath strikes, that is ...

On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Nov 2007 17:17:29 GMT) it happened Joerg wrote in :

How far away is that transmitter? Curious.

You're a goddamned retard.

only half the resolution,

You're an idiot.

Some are about 30 miles away, others about 100 miles. The one we can still receive is roughly 10 miles west. We are up the hill from all those so signal strength is usually very good. But sometimes the reflected signal can be stronger than the direct path. Not a problem with analog, you can still see the news. With DTV it's all or nothing. The set says "reveicing data" for 10 seconds or so and then, poof, "no signal".

On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:32:04 -0800) it happened Joerg wrote in :

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Well, Netherlands (and I can only speak for them on terrestial) only seems to broadcast SD ATM. (Somebody correct me if it changed, I do not scan the bands every day). That is a decision of politics, the broadcasters, I think some experiments are going on on cable, and some HD stations from otehr parts of Europe are relayed via cable, but, as I have no cable, I cannot tell you anything about it.

From you other posting I am amazed some clouds kill the reception. That has never happened here receiving from one part of the country to the other over the water even.. Thunderstorms can take out satellite however.

TV is free here now too, the public broadcasters are payed from adds and the general taxes.

great system:

DVB-S and DVB-S2 is *satellite*, the 'S' stands for satellite. DVB-T and DVB-T2 are terrestial.

especially in the cities.

The general public is just the victim of the set makers (electronic industry). You fell for it, and will likely need to upgrade.

I have never even noticed anything multipath related, I am beginning to get the impression the US system sucks a lot (honestly), and that once everybody has gone digital it will need to be upgraded to something like DVB-T2 too.

Something is wrong, you are not the only one complaining about reception problems there. No such sounds here.

But really, the Dutch main 1,2,3 stations are free terrestial, you need a card fro satelite, the LOCAL stations are both terrestial and on satellite and free. Logic? There is no logic. That is politics. For example I can get the local TV station, about 30 km or so away, via satellite, and also via terrestial, both free. Many people where I live have a dish, it is free, and cable costs money. But I can also get say the Amsterdam area local stations via satellite.... So 'local' is Europe wide in a way.

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So it seems the US is ahead here :-)

Yesterday while cooking the turkey (outside on the barbeque) I sometimes popped in to check it out. There were at least four long HDTV transmissions in amazing picture quality. Probably a lot more but since I am not a sports fan I missed all of those games.

Well, it is said thet 8-VSB is not very multipath-tolerant and, unfortunately, that seems to be the case. We have such extreme multipath that sometimes signals appear on the next line (!) in analog TV. Often the reflected signal becomes stronger than the direct one. When clouds roll in or when the Fedex freighter lumbers into Mather Field all this changes. In the analog signal this shows up as "pumping" but you can still watch the programming. In digital it's poof, gone.

The taxes were the main reason I left NL. I met a few young gals down at the pub above which I used to have an apartment. They were on welfare and had no intention whatsoever to join the workforce. Because they got so much in welfare money. Not my kind of life and I didn't want to support such behavior.

great system:

Doesn't answer the question :-)

Why doesn't NL transmit terrestrial HDTV? I mean, for a soccer fan to watch Feyenoord or another team in HDTV must be great. Same for nature series such as Jacques Cousteau. Yesterday I saw something like that in HD, absolutely amazing.

especially in the cities.

I doubt that. There are more than a dozen formats prescribed in the standard and the sets sold right now must be compliant with these. Also, the set I bought has a service jack that suspiciously looks like a LAN port. So ...

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DVB-T2 too.

problems there.

Yep, I guess when they turn analog off there will be gnashing of teeth and grumpy people calling their reps (which in the US works!). I don't really care much about TV and right now it seems that in bad weather we can at least watch our regular news while the other channels keel over. Oh well, TV ain't that important.

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satellite,

Seems to go that way here as well. On one of the DTV channels they aired a program from Seattle yesterday. That's a 15+ hour drive from here and only if you never stop for a meal.