How are consumers affected by NiMH and Li-ion cell voltage reversal?

Hi:

I have been working a bit with NiMH AA cells lately in powering various gadgets such as LED flashlights, HID flashlights, and a photoflash unit.

I have been using the highly regarded Sanyo and Energizer 2500mAh cells. I use a LaCrosse BC-900 to pre-condition and charge the cells.

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The Energizer and Sanyo cells seem to be fairly well matched when conditioned well, with a spread of perhaps 2.4 to 2.6 Ah.

However, when used in series packs of 4 to 8 cells, always it is the case that one or two cells collapse before the other cells are depleted. They never all go down together. Thus, the evidence of cell depletion as perceived in the operation of the device is very ambiguous, making it hard to tell when to turn it off to avoid cell damage.

Of course I have no way to be sure if a cell has experienced reverse voltage while installed in most devices. If I have the chance, I quickly remove the cells and measure with a DMM when the device appears to be running low on power. What I find is one or two cells with a very low voltage of 0.9V or so, rapidly rising. Thus, I suspect that these cells likely had reversed voltage when current was flowing, and are now recovering their positive voltage due to material diffusion.

Inserting the cells in the BC-900 on discharge mode reveals that sure enough the low cells have effectively zero capacity and the other cells might have 5-10% or so of remaining capacity. Just enough to keep the gadget going long enough to reverse the voltage on the weaker cells for a considerable time.

Now I am fortunate enough to have test instruments, know a little about the need to quickly turn off a gadget once declining power begins to be apparent, and I have one of the most sophisticated non-laboratory grade battery chargers on the market (which I think is still rather deficient in many quality and feature aspects).

The best things about the BC-900 is it allows one to condition new cells, and measure their capacities. I would never be satisfied with a charger that just said "has a conditioning cycle with 'done' indicator LED" because one really needs a quantitative measure to be certain the cells have been conditioned. Even the BC-900 typically fails to fully condition on the first run. A second run usually does the trick. This can take 2-3 days.

New cells take quite a few cycles to approach full capacity. This coupled with the cell voltage reversal problem leads me to suspect that the average consumer might have mostly disappointing experiences with NiMH cells sold in stores. Especially since the chargers sold with them don't provide diagnostic info nor have the ability to condition cells with multiple cycles before first use. Also, the capacities are VERY poorly matched on the first few cycles. Finally, unless they buy very good cells, many cheap cells out their never have well balanced capacities even if one attempts to condition them. (The batteries that come with the charger are a case in point--chuck them and buy Energizers.) So if the new cells are used in devices rather than first in a conditioning cycle in a charger (with *independent* cell charging channels) then the cells are likely to experience the most prolonged and damaging voltage reversals in the first few uses!

I have noticed that the rate of self-discharge is very slightly faster on the cells which I suspect have reversed. Though, they only reversed for a very brief time. If consumers leave their gadgets running until they basically "don't go anymore" ie, deep discharge the packs, then they likely are damaging their cells quite a bit, leading to a continually degenerating performance of the pack.

My experiences with NiMH cells have convinced me that they take a lot of care and effort to use effectively. Ideally a device engineered to use them will shut down before cells collapse. But this is very difficult to ensure unless circuitry can actually monitor every cell independently. Of course, no designer would spare the expense of such a scheme. Thus I doubt that consumers are ever realizing the full potential of these cells, which truly have remarkable capacities, and the current to make high-drain devices perform very well. But without the proper care which I suspect most folks never give these cells, they are likely to seem like junk, with very poor lifetimes and performance in gadgets.

Any thoughts?

P.S. I have also recently tried rechargable Li-ion CR123 shaped cells. Just a pair of them in an LED flashlight. Sure enough one cell collapses before the other and now that cell has slightly higher self-discharge rate than the other.

It seems cells need to have a diode built in to limit reverse voltage to a non-damaging or at least a very minimally damaging level (maybe a Shottky).

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
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Reply to
Chris Carlen
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[snip]

"Smart" battery controllers check ALL the cells in a series pack and discontinue discharge before reversal.

Quite a few years ago (before CAD) I did a LiIon chip design. It's on paper here somewhere. If I can find it I'll post it.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Certainly that is the right way to do it. I didn't anticipate that anyone would actually do it though. With an ASIC, perhaps it's not much of a cost, compared to what a large volume of failure/replacements would cost.

This kind of control really needs to be in NiMH and NiCd packs as well. But it doens't help much for applications of individual off-the-shelf rechargeable cells.

Are there any off-the-shelf chips that have say, 4-8 monitoring inputs and some control output that can switch a big MOSFET for dealing with series packs in equipment designed without custom ASICs?

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
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Reply to
Chris Carlen

Hello Chris,

This is typically done with a micro controller.

Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

My chip used an analog MUX (and "flying cap") to compare each cell against a BandGap reference and then controlled back-to-back PMOS power FET's to limit BOTH charge AND discharge.

(The back-to-back power FET configuration has been posted to a.b.s.e before, and also "OverAndReverseVoltageProtection.pdf" and "PerfectDiodeForChargerIsolation.pdf" on the S.E.D/Schematics page of my website.)

I would imagine that you could create a workable equivalent using off-the-shelf chips.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC\'s and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Doesn't it get tricky though, in that it will essentially have to turn itself as well as any analog monitoring/conditioning circuitry off until at least charge current arrives? Once you decide a cell has gone down too far, you can't continue drawing current from the pack to support the control electronics or else you'll slowly keep discharging, and risk causing the problem you're trying to avoid.

Now I'll have to go have a look at Jim's circuits...

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov
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Reply to
Chris Carlen

I built sometime ago a small project using 6 NiMh cells with 6 ultra low-power opamps as voltage comparator to monitor each cell. Each opamp is connected to read the voltage difference from one cell to the next, so each opamp output is the voltage of one specific cell. The 6 outputs are then connected to 6 diodes (ubiquitous 1N4148) with a pull-up resistor (like a logical OR but in an analog way) so only one voltage output. But as soon as one cell dropped below 0.7V, it pulls-down, signaling a low cell to whatever system is using the batteries. Just a comment it is easy to do. Rail-to-rail I/O opamps are usefull. I used one quad and one dual opamp for this with SIP resistors. A manufacturer could all this an do better in one IC.

Pier

Reply to
Pierre Q.

Hello Chris,

That began to become easy with the advent of the first 80C51 series that had a true sleep mode. Nowadays a low-end MSP430 could do it with lots of horsepower left over for other stuff.

For a one-off unit an analog solution would certainly be easier.

Regards, Joerg

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Reply to
Joerg

There are only 2 ways of controlling batteries connected in series:

- monitor each cell independently and switch of when one of them reaches EOL(cut-off).

- monitor voltage of the whole stack and cut off when the voltage drops of e.g. 10% of the single (not the stack) battery - 1.2+1.2=2.4V so the cut-off should be at 2.4-0.1*1.2=2.28V (10% need to be consulted with datasheets of individual battery) Which solution is better or cheaper - up to designer. In both you will sacrifice capacity of total sum of all. This solution is applicable to all sorts of same chemistry batteries.

Serial connection of batteries creates positive feedback in internal impedance increase: the battery that first develops higher impedance will die quicker and if the voltage drop over load is smaller than batteries voltage difference, the dieing battery may be damage.This is more serious problem for stack of more than 2 batteries. The diode across the battery may prevent damage A few other solutions possible.

Reply to
Slavek

I have not had much experience with NiMH cells, (or Li-ion) but I have a few ideas.

Any kind of diode in series with the cell will be very wasteful of power due to its voltage drop. It may be better to put a diode in parallel with each cell and also have a built-in resettable fuse or other protective device that will trip open if a reverse voltage is applied.

A clever means I have seen for monitoring the discharge condition of a series of cells is to put an extra load on one of the cells in the series stack, so it will be guaranteed to deplete before the others (assuming a reasonable match), and you need only monitor this one cell.

There are microcontrollers available for a fraction of a dollar that could monitor each cell. I have thought it would be a great project to incorporate such a device in individual cells, and have it flash one or more small LEDs to indicate the state of charge, and possibly switch an integral series MOSFET to provide protection from overload and overcharging. It could also have a temperature sensor which can detect the typical temperature rise when a NiMH cell has been fully charged.

Paul E. Schoen

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Reply to
Paul E. Schoen

This is absolutely absurd, you would get only 5% of the capacity out of a racing pack (6 or 7 stacked together). It only hurts the battery, if you reverse the voltage across it, but when you always recharge after 5% the memory effect bites you.

What is a dieing battery? One which is discharged or damaged? You talk like a kid who does know nothing about the subject.

--
ciao Ban
Apricale, Italy
Reply to
Ban

sure a secure way to discharge the battery pack when idle, micropower or not. just a question of time.

--
ciao Ban
Apricale, Italy
Reply to
Ban

This is just a thought, Why not come up with a efficiant dc to dc converter connected to " merged" into the battery assembly with all the batteries in parralel. That way no battery gets reverse charged and amp hour capacity is a factor of how many batteries are in your pack. Might be a problem to charge condition the pack? Hmm, Its late here. Ill read this later and wonder what I was talking about, Hehe... Jtt...

Reply to
James Thompson

By far the best idea, just a bigger cell and a DC-DC converter inside the appliance. Works especially well with Li-ion where cell voltage should always be above 2.7V

--
ciao Ban
Apricale, Italy
Reply to
Ban

The monitoring circuit is active only when the batteries are supplying power to devices. By using micropower opamps the monitoring circuit doesn't feed much from the batteries, much much less than the normal load.

Pier

Reply to
Pierre Q.

Chris Carlen wrote: (snip)

(snip)

That is my experience too.

(snip)

I believe that is certain.

(snip)

Probably true.

But .... all that can be said of NiCD as well, yet people kept right on buying them, buying NiCD replacements for reversed NiCDs, buying tools and appliances and toys with built-in NiCDs. Today people allow devices to pull down NiMH; ten years ago they abused NiCDs similarly. The only things that have changed in the mean time are battery chemistry, battery capacity, and the box that loads the cells.

A 1-cell, LED flashlight (w/ voltage-boost, of course) wouldn't have that problem. (But ya still gotta be careful not to let the load suck the guts out of the rechargable.)

What? And drop the screwy 1.2v to an even lower value?

Reply to
Michael

No, the diode goes antiparallel to the battery -- reverse biased by the normal cell voltage, but pointing in parallel to the normal direction of current flow through the battery. The diode is not in series with the cell, so does not drop voltage when the cell is providing voltage. The the diode does nothing until the cell voltage collapses. The diode then turns on to conduct the current being generated by the remaining cells which still have capacity. The diode forbids the reverse voltage across the dead cell from exceeding the diode drop, which in the case of a Shottky, would be about 0.4V.

Perhaps -0.4V across a cell is still damaging, I'm not sure. Would need an electrochemist to comment on this. The diode would also not interfere with charging in any way in this arrangement.

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
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Reply to
Chris Carlen

Yes, the point was a parallel diode, not series. Series would make charging impossible. Parallel does nothing until the cell voltage reverses, at which point it simply clamps the reverse voltage.

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov
NOTE, delete texts: "RemoveThis" and
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Reply to
Chris Carlen

No, with only two cells, you can cut off at the sum of the depleted voltages of the two cells, about 1.8V. That is because if one cell collapses even completely before the other cell, then the max pack voltage is 1.35V (the typical open circuit voltage of a cell hot off the charger) so guaranteed to get all the capacity out of well balanced cells.

The cut off for larger packs is more tricky.

For four cells, it's still not difficult, with about 4.0V being a good value, since it is still above the voltage of three good cells plus one bad, which would be about 4.05V. But this would never occur under load. You could also assume that the average cell voltage through a typical

1C discharge of 1.2V*3=3.6V would be a safe cutoff. If the problem is a dead cell rather than a slight mismatch in capacity, then it really doesn't matter that you reverse the dead cell. You will notice something is wrong very quickly when the loaded pack simply never delivers more than about 3.75V even freshly charged.

Eight cells, which is what I have in my MagHID flashlight, is more problematic. Here a proper cutoff might be 8.4V, which is what you'd get if one cell collapsed while the others still have 1.2V. But it means that if the cells are balanced, they will only be able to discharge down to 1.05V. This is probably about 95% of their capacity, so it's not that bad. Even a safer 8.75V would still pull 90% from the cells.

There is an AppNote at Energizer which talks about this.

The problem which was really the point of my OP is that in systems not designed to use these cells, where consumers are putting in off-the-shelf rechargeables, there is no automatic cutoff to prevent cell reversal.

--
Good day!

________________________________________
Christopher R. Carlen
Principal Laser&Electronics Technologist
Sandia National Laboratories CA USA
crcarleRemoveThis@BOGUSsandia.gov
NOTE, delete texts: "RemoveThis" and
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Reply to
Chris Carlen

If you aim is to preserve battery (most are still expensive) this is he way to go. When you approaching end of charge in stack of few ,you already used ~80% of all capacity.

If yo don't care about the battery - you can do whatever you want. For stacks 3 and more individual control is better.

Reply to
Slavek

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