Generating sparks with certain characteristics

Once upon a time, sparkfun sold this device:

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It took 5V 3A DC in, and out the other end came a loud, bright series of sp arks at maybe 30-50Hz. The spark gap could be up to a half inch wide, so I' m guessing it generated something near 30,000v at peak. The effect was an i mpressively "fat" spark that looked more or less continuous but wasn't, and buzzed loudly.

They stopped selling them because they tended to fry themselves after very little use. Unfortunately, that happened after I'd designed a device that u ses them, so now I'm searching for a replacement, and having no luck. Part of the problem is the replacement device has to be about the same size and shape as the original, so anything involving a car ignition coil is off the table.

I tied to open one of the original devices up. It was fully potted and I do n't have appropriate tools, so I ended up shredding it without learning muc h, but:

The output is from a transformer, made of two squarish coils joined by an i ron U core. No way to tell what the ratio is; I damaged the coils. Both sid es seemed to have a fair amount of wound copper, which surprises me because I'd have expected a huge ratio.

Driving the transformer is two capacitors, possibly in serial. Unclear exac tly how they connected to the transformer. Driving the capacitors... I hav e no idea what it was, given how badly I shredded it. Possibly 1 or 2 didoe s or resistors and some sort of small blue blob which I assume was some kin d of oscillator, but for all I can prove it's where the voltage step-up hap pens and the transformer is just for isolation. I think that's the full set of components. The caps contained some kind of foil and didn't look electr olytic. They were longish, fattish rectangles, not disc or can shaped.

When one unit failed, one of the two caps more or less exploded, deforming the case, if that's a clue to the design. The unit would self destruct rapi dly if asked to drive a gap of over 1/2", but they tended to die sooner or later anyway.

I realise this is not enough to go on, but I'm hoping someone can derive wh at the circuit was likely to be. I will experiment from there. I want a fin al circuit that is stable and long lasting.

YES, I know a half inch of spark represents a dangerous amount of energy. I 'll take due care in my experimentation.

Thanks in advance.

Reply to
Scott M
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They're still being sold on eBay:

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

On a sunny day (Sun, 24 May 2015 21:53:56 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Scott M wrote in :

I have this:

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The 400 kV needs to be consumed with a bit of salt so to speak.

Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Wow...ain't those pics showing the arcing leads BEING HELD a bit misleading???

Reply to
Robert Baer

Not necessarily. The sparks may look pretty mean, but by the time these cheap devices generate the voltage required to jump such a gap, the current will be minimal.

Reply to
Cursitor Doom

M

While it's neat that people found alternate sources for the original device s; the problem is that they tended to fail. I'm hoping to figure out the ci rcuit design and then use better components so I get a stable device. I gua rantee that most of those ebay performance claims are nonsense; and given t hat they're being sold on ebay for a third of the original price, i's prett y obvious they're just unloading whatever inventory they can.

If someone here can reverse engineer based on my description, that'd be fan tastic. Barring that, what's the right technique for de-potting these thing s? The inside is full with white hard gunk which cuts well with a dremel an d gets crumbly (not precisely soft) under a heat gun and pliers, but I stil l ended up using enough force that things broke. What's the right solvent?

Reply to
Scott M

Go buy one or more of those outdoor charcoal lighters found in almost any store. Break it open and take the igniter out. Please safely discard the propane container.

I used one to produce a bit of an impulse for a PCB under test because a customer complained his processor reset when he shuffled his feet on the carpet on a dry day and touched the panel on which it was mounted. It helped me to locate and fix the problem.

Don't get your fingers across the wires. It hurts.

Reply to
John S

If that doesn't thrill you, look on Ebay for spark ignitor.

Reply to
John S

Try leaving a few chunks of potting compound in some different solvents. Turpentine, paint thinners, petrol (gasoline...), acetone, trichlorethylene etc etc for a week and see what happens. Different potting compounds, different solvents?

Reply to
just_me

On a sunny day (Mon, 25 May 2015 05:04:15 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Scott M wrote in :

Maybe you should look into what you could be doing wrong to cause the failure. Mine came with a clear warning not to put the electrodes too far apart. That causes internal arcing in the transformer and then breakdown. The other thing is feed it from a current limited supply. I had some HV stuff sparking with a 'jacobs ladder', seems reliable.

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Reply to
Jan Panteltje

Dichloromethane (DCM, or methylene chloride) is a good solvent for many types of plastics. As with most organic solvents, only use with good ventilation and don't come into contact with it. $27 for a quart on Amazon. It can be used as a glue for many plastics as well by dissolving the plastic at the union before evaporating. It is used as the working fluid in the drinking bird toys.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

A second spark gap might be needed for reliability. If the user opens the elctrodes too far, the second gap will limit the maximum voltage. This might prevent the capacitors from frying.

Reply to
Mark White

ignition IGBTs and such usually have a ~400V clamp, if there is a failed ignition wire the IGBT will clamp the energy instead of the ignition coil voltage just rising until something might break

-Lasse

Reply to
Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Good plan. One can buy high voltage caps with a built in protective spark gap. For example: They're common in tube type color TV's and some Geiger counters.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

I had a fairly nice CRT monitor once that worked for about a year before it started making a snapping sound and the picture popping out and returning. Very seldom at first, then more often until it eventually didn't come back. Seems there was an over-voltage which was being relieved by a manufactured spark gap. There were several scattered around in the design.

The manufacturer shipped me a refurbished replacement which started to fail within a month. A third unit also started to fail very soon. With a three year warranty on the unit they were going to be eaten alive by the shipping costs. I couldn't get them to refund my money, but eventually they sent me a different model.

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Rick
Reply to
rickman

Try very hot WFNA and use dehydrated acetone for wash. ABSOLUTELY NEED FUME HOOD!!!!!!!!!!! Use a bit of care, as metals tend to slowly dissolve as they are uncovered. A circuit can be un-encapsulated and still work.

Reply to
Robert Baer

Will not work for epoxies.

Reply to
Robert Baer

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