Expert Opinion Required !

Hi Rob, So, you like programming micros and PLCs, but you want to get some education that PROVES you know how to do it, RIGHT?

My take on these things is this - If you already know how to do this stuff because you are a hobbiest, and have have been playing around in your workshop with it for a few years, then MAYBE these programs will help.

Most of these programs work at the most basic level. Their purpose is to raise money for the schools by offering hope to lots of poor students that they can get high paying technology jobs by taking a few courses. Most students drop out (after paying their fees) or finish the classes and are still flipping burgers. The ones who succeed are the ones that already knew this stuff before going in, and just learned a little more about what they wanted, but especially now have certification that maybe they now know something about the field.

Back a few years ago, I had the task for hiring a few techs to help install and maintain some fairly complex computer systems. I had several applicants with ITT and DeVry 'degrees' come in, but only one was worth the paper his resume was printed on. That one was a hobbiest, the others were Bill Gates wannabes that thought just knowing how to turn on a computer and play video games was enough to get a job in computers. This stuff is HARD! You have to have a love for it, or you will never be any good at it.

So, yes, it can be worth it, but you are better off going to your state university and getting a BS:EE if you really want to make any money.

--
Charlie
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Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems

Hi,

I see mostly software jobs going off-shore. Companies still seem to like their hardware/microcontroller designs done in-house. Then there is 'support engineering' - keeping production, testing, and QC going. That is not about to be outsourced either.

Finally, there's prostitution - let's see 'em outsource that one!

--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm

That is actually not a bad scheme, except that he could actually expect to get paid for his work. Half-time doing tech stuff and scutt work, half-time at a community college, would be a good start. Learning the teory and doing the work simultaneously is immensely valuable, as is being aroundsome working EEs who will help expalain the academic abstractions. I'd hire somebody like that who really wanted to work and learn. But my car *never* gets washed.

I'd suggest taking EE-track courses, even if you might not ever be able to get the 4-year degree. Associates degrees and tech training are intellectually limited and not worth much on a resume. Many of the technical schools start by teaching electron flow, switch to conventional current later, and some people never get un-confused.

That's also true. It takes a certain kind of talent to be good at electronics, plus a lot of learning and experience. Years to get pretty good, for sure.

John

Thanks, but I think I'll still prefer to 'Buy American'.

--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm

Hey, looks like my typing goes to hell while I'm working out with the hand weights.

John

Is an education in electronics/software really worth the effort and cost? I ask the question in light of all of the off-shoring that is going on, and more to come. My take is that the earning potential for these degrees is going to go down over time, while the cost of the education is skyrocketing.

Just my 2 cents.

Dave,

I forget who wrote the article in Popular or Radio Electronics decades ago, (Lancaster?), but they said an EET degree is nearly as difficult and will get you considerably less salary and respect, and I can only say from what I have seen and experienced (DeVry) and other (ITT) its true.

It is really discouraging to think a college diploma is something honorable, to be earned, rather than a snob license, what our founding father's called a "title of nobility" which they forbid.

I see HP's CEO Fiorina is getting the boot for trashing HP? More Ivy-League snobs should likewise, but I digress.

If you aren't in a hurry, or have family waiting to give you a job once you get your training, you better get a sheepskin from a state university, or other sheepskin'd state university grads will discriminate against you. They only hire DeVry and ITT types to make cables and do the work of their cronies.

If you don't really have a passion for electronics, consider law or marketing. People are getting more corrupt and stupid, so there is likely to be more demand and more money.

Perhaps in China or Asia, where our politicians are outsourcing decent careers for their corporate investment profits.

Scott

--
**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

POLITICS, n.
A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. - Ambrose Bierce

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About 40 years ago, when submitting my chosen classes toward a BSEE, the "counselor" tried to talk (badgering is a closer term) me into going for an ASS (oops!) AAS degree. Not *one* unit for the AAS was acceptable towards a BSEE! And is most likely the same now. Most companies (then) hiring electronic techs view mail-order "degrees" as being worse than useless and give the applicant a

*negative* count toward any "score" they silently give to them. And ASS (oops!) degrees are not viewed to be much better.

Either jump in now, with no background and learn while working, or go for a real education and work during summers to replenish school funds and learn while working. There may even still be some companies that offer work-study programs. Theory alone is not of a lot of value, unless that is all you will be working with. Practice counts; the theory helps in tough situations.

I read in sci.electronics.design that Luhan Monat wrote (in ) about 'Expert Opinion Required !', on Thu, 17 Feb 2005:

Outsourcing doesn't work, no, but in Europe there's a lot of 'in- sourcing' - bringing the operatives to the jobs rather than the other way round.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. 
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

What's sex tourism if not outsourcing?

Find an older expert engineer that owns his own company and is hard working, John Larkin on this NG comes to mind. Go work for him for two years, pay him the same amount that you would of paid for that AAS degree. Do everything he says, sweep the floor, wash his car, read all that he recommends, show respect and work your ass off. If your not putting in at least 60 hours per week, your a wimp. Find a room near the lab. At the end of two years, if John gives his approval, you will be hired as an EE at >$60K/yr. You are now ready to take advanced engineering classes that you will easily understand. Your classmates will think you are brilliant. If you continue working hard, the sky is the limit. I would not touch a recent AAS grad. Oh, by the way, I only have a AAS degree but did do much of the above. Can't call myself an engineer but can call myself a contractor or consultant with much better benefits. That does not get you to the top of the heap. That takes a brilliant mind, excellent college education and maybe at least 10 years of hard work. J.T. our $200/hr man, and he is worth it, can explain more. boy, that is a good Merlot, Harry

I've seen this referred to as the "offishal peice of paper".

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"Are those morons getting dumber or just louder?" -- Mayor Quimby

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin wrote (in ) about 'Expert Opinion Required !', on Thu, 17 Feb 2005:

That's why you should start before you are 10 years old.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. 
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Or, if that's too late,t before you start acting/feeling older than about ten.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

OTOH, we hired a DeVry graduate some years back, who turned out to be one of the best technicians I've ever worked with. He was certainly better than the "experienced" technicians we had at the time (he would follow instructions). After a few years working for me (I was rather protective of my work ;-), the research division hired him away and two years later he was given an engineering title and the money to go with it. He was by no means a "hobbyist" when he went in. YMMV.

--
  Keith

Yeah, you really have to hand it to those American w***es.

Which is why so many guys prefer Asians. ;-)

There's me thinking that was what YOU paid THEM to do.

Paul Burke

Most university programs are total crap- so you figure out where the correspondence schools rate. There are some states with large industrial bases that have set up state technical college systems apart from the usual community college system. The faculty at schools like these are all active and/or retired industry engineers with an incalculable wealth of practical experience. These are the best schools to attend for a ground floor introduction to applied electronics that is in demand. Every single one of their graduates is placed, because there is usually an implicit agreement between local industry and the state to hire them- with the state school adjusting the curriculum in accordance with industry input.

Hey Speh, you still got it! Harry