Drugs, politics etc

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killed >herself. "

urual friends. Decided to fly out the window, upstairs of course.

quite young. I somehow got ahold of some textbooks that were supposedly be yond my age. When I was a kid, I did not want toys for Christmas, I wanted books and they knew it.

observe" mode or something like that. I have sat back and watched peole do all kinds of things and I think I am pretty well qualified to say that recr eational drugs are not the problem, people are the problem. I know a guy wh o does heroin on the weekends. Like when he has a few days off work. Sleeps it off and doesn't touch it for a month or at least a week. Most people ca n't do that. i knew aguy, he's dead but he fgot old first, used to drink a fifth of run evry day. Could not tell he was drinking at all. Never got a D WI or DUI, ever. hardly ev3r got a ticket even. I do coke once about every three years, actually Ii am about due but I am in no hurry. And when the pa rty is over, it is over. I am not selling my tools for another eightball.

day, he never got busted driving because he was such a good driver in the f irst place. He was a crane operator so obviously he had good eyesight. and knew WTF he was doing. the people who f*ck up and kill people on the way ho me from the bar pretty much can't drive for shit in the first place. If you can REALLY drive you can throw down a six pack and then talk on the phone while driving. But most people can't, and that's the problem. (WTF are all these people talking ABOUT on those cellphones all the time ?)

going to start respecting that. One of us start a thread about this, people and politics and shit.

king at short term effects only, and ignoring the greater deterioration tha t occurs over time.

rs very severely. As you rightly point out not everyone does, and not every one gets addicted, and it sounds like you're one of those people. However m ost in that situation do eventually become enslaved, even if it takes years .

ke drug use seem ok. Denial is a huge part of addiction, making realistic d iscussion usually unconstructive.

the toilet and stop the resulting tide of crime. Whether the political/leg al approaches partially work or make things worse is of course up for debat e.

so instead of letting people flush their own lives down the toilet if they so wish, they make sure to flush peoples lives down the toilet by putting t hem in jail

-Lasse

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Anecdotal evidence isn't much help- you really need statistical data to h ave an intelligent discussion of this topic.

I'm a long-time functioning pothead (married, 40 hrs/wk job, yada yada) a nd ex-acidhead, and not addiction-prone, but what works for me won't work f or everyone.

Of course.

rs

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Eventually we'll find the genetic origins of addictability and such drugs will simply not appear on the list of permissibles for those people in the worst-case Universal Health Care scenario (you go to your neighborhood Gov ernment-installed recreational substance vending machine, it scans your RFI D chip, and it won't dispense heroin to you).

ke

The fundamental unrealistic belief for addicts is that the drugs make lif e better *despite being addictive*.

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As I see it, the fundamental political problem is that compulsive sobriet y can be legislated but it can't be enforced. History shows that people *wi ll* alter their consciousnesses whether those in control like it or not.

The crime aspect is multifold. First, if production, distribution, and us e of any high-demand commodity (and drugs *are* such a commodity) are defin ed as criminal activities, then there's a lot of "crime". Consequently, eve ryone involved in any of those activities are motivated to avoid prosecutio n by any means *they* deem appropriate.

Second, if there's a lot of potential profit in it, people already engage d in other criminal activities *will* get involved in it and will readily u se criminal methods to get that profit.

Third, snags in the distribution chain don't have the same consequences a s in say getting coffee. You never have to show a barista a gun to straight en out your latte order. A Starbucks coffee buyer doesn't keep an Uzi in hi s briefcase. Coffee growers (generally) don't use slaves to tend their crop s or have to buy off local cops.

Also, addictive drug use is a tool of pimps and other slavers, increasing synergistically other kinds of crime.

I have no patience with ideological/religious opposition to drug use. Soc iety has managed to incorporate alcohol production, distribution, and use i nto its fabric with relatively reasonable limits and controls, apparently b ecause Yahweh implicitly condoned Noah's drunkenness and because Jeebus dra nk wine.

Some drugs are far too dangerous to users to be permitted; heroin comes t o mind. It should be flat-out exterminated at the source- I'm sure the plan et will get along without poppies.

Other drugs make users incompetent to be out in public, but putting users in prison is pointless. I'm thinking LSD, cocaine, and meth. Exterminating coca is possible but unlikely and the others are too easy to synthesize, s o other measures are required. I see no operational reason they can't be re gulated similarly to alcohol with an similar sobriety test and whatnot. Bei ng high on any of them would not mitigate spouse or child abuse while not i n public any more than with alcohol.

We really can't expect citizens to behave reasonably when those in charge pass unreasonable laws.

Mark L. Fergerson

I think it would be very a interesting experiment to outlaw coffee! Would you buy it on the black market? What if you could get it in a little white pill. (Nodoze) How much would you pay? Is that enough that people would be to violent and stamp out other dealers of this illegal drug. My wife recently got that monkey off her back. I still start the coffee pot second thing in the morning. Mikek

Yup. And the "I-read-a-Reader's-Digest-article" experts, aren't. Sort of like *men* trying to create policies to address *rape*!

My attitude towards "substances" has varied over the years.

I finally identified why *my* opinion is unimportant: I'm not addiction prone despite having MANY "habits" (i.e., my habits are choices made to remove silly decisions from my life: why worry about which shirt to wear with which pair of pants and which socks/shoes, etc.? Just wear roughly the same thing ALL THE TIME! Ditto with diet, exercise, etc.).

And, my experiences growing up suggested that most folks were like me: that they could engage in behaviors "at will" and walk away from them with equal ease. E.g., party on the weekend and be "responsible" in time for school/work monday morning.

Apparently, this is the exception and not the rule! I first noticed this with drunks (*their* word) who *really* were stressed to stay away from their "habit". And, would engage in REALLY significant risk to continue that behavior ("Yeah, my license is suspended but I can be really careful while driving soas not to draw attention to myself. And, if I *do* get pulled over, I've got enough clout to get the issue dismissed...")

I've since encountered many folks with anecdotal claims of family members ruined by various substances (alcohol, drugs, etc.). E.g., meth is supposedly very hard to quit -- despite the OBVIOUS, VISIBLE damage that it does to your body, etc.

A friend was prescribed morphine for some sever back pain and the look in his eyes as he explains what it was like to "discontinue it" (despite his medical condition) borders on terror!

I simply can't imagine what that would be like -- so, rule myself out when it comes to deciding policy on these issues.

And, all those holier-than-thou should likewise disqualify themselves.

*Or*, "dose up" for a few weeks so they can speak from experience... once they've SUCCESSFULLY quit!

"Just say no?" Let's see how easy it is for *you*, (e.g., Rush :> )

Self-medicating is often the only alternative for folks with no other remedies available. A bottle/joint/fix is more available than an hour with a counselor (which may have dubious results, at best)

The same can be said of the platitude that you can just "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" -- usually said by folks claiming to have done so while ignoring the contributions of mommy and daddy in that equation.

You can't legislate morality.

And, what's wrong with being non-sober? Just because *you* may want to be grumpy and miserable, why should others HAVE TO be likewise?

When folks claim to "hear voices", we lock them up in mental institutions. Yet, when they claim they know GOD'S WILL (word), it's perfectly "normal". Really? And how many invisible friends *do* you have?

Native Americans use hallucinogenics in their religious services. "Ah, but those aren't valid religious services because they don't worship *my* god! So, we can rule that behavior illegal/immoral"

Apparently, there is some concern over the *new* ability to "save" folks who've OD'd (heroin?). I.e., they no longer self-select themselves to exit the gene pool -- at society's direct financial expense (for the drug that brings them back from near death).

Well, *their* morality is obviously "better" -- hence the reason they've been so willing to make these decisions for ALL of us! (invisible friend)

The same can be true of attitudes towards rape, abortion, euthanasia, etc.

This is how I counter folks with "pat answers" regarding drugs, smokes, etc. No, I can't make it illegal. But, I *can* challenge someone to stop drinking it for two weeks (hey, why just ONE week? You should just as easily be able to go for TWO weeks as one!).

Amusing that those with such strong opinions on these other subjects ("Just say no") never are willing to undertake such a *trivial* (?) challenge! Yet, think so lowly of folks who are addicted to smokes, drugs, etc. ("They should just quit! Think of all the money they would save!" "Sure! Think of how much you spend at Starbuck's each week! YOU should just quit!!")

Of course! Caffeine is an extremely powerful psychoactive DRUG. Plus, the cultural aspects that accompany it. (JUst like "social drinking", etc.)

Good luck to her. Apparently, withdrawal is known to cause headache, etc. OTOH, caffeine is helpful for breathing (asthmatics, allergy sufferers, etc.) I switch to black tea during particularly challenging bouts with allergies just for the caffeine fix.

Why are those pills legal then ? If they are so concrned about us, why are a whole bunch of things legal ?

Ah, I was talking about coffee, she stopped drinking coffee. She has always exercised, but lately she's found a morning exercise routine on TV and spends an hour bouncing around in front of the TV. Makes me tired!

If they are so concerned about us, why are a whole bunch of things legal ?

I'll take that as a rhetorical question.

Mikek

The same reason other drugs are legal, because sometimes the desired effects outweigh the possibility of side effects. I'm on some really nasty drugs I'd rather not be on and next time I see the doctor I'm going to argue that I shouldn't be on them (anymore, if ever).

The effect they have had on you has certainly been noticeable.

Oh, AND IF that happens to be phenobarb and dilantin, You should have been put on Cannabis years ago.

We all know you're a druggie, DimBulb.

You wouldn't notice a baseball bat firmly placed across you nose, AlwaysWrong.

Really?

IOW, you have no clue what phenobarb and dilantin are. IOW, you're a goddamned retarded idiot.

So what are your special "nasty" "drugs" you don't want to be on any more, pussy boy?

I have hair that is ten years long.

You go over to Vegas, and plop down a bet of your entire savings and retirement, stocks, etc. on your retarded assertion. Put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is, asswipe.

When they test my hair and find out that at no time in said last ten years were ANY drugs taken, I get your booked bet.

You would lose.

Otherwise, shut the f*ck up, and f*ck off and die, pussy boy.

You wouldn't feel one grazing your nuts, firmly or otherwise, because you don't have any, PUSSY BOY!

If you ever had any, they probably already got fed to you one day.

'cause yer so pleasurable to be around.

Hey man, like your no fun, kick back, expand yer mind man. Or not, Mikek :-)

Really. There is no other explanation.

I know what they are and no, neither.

There really isn't any need for you to know, AlwaysWrong but the worst of them is Amioderone. Nasty stuff.

You haven't got enough money, AlwaysWrong.

IKWYABWAI

Yep, it's just you, DimBulb.

Oh, we don't have the right to know what you take into your body so we can make sure it is legal and moral ?

Yet you presume to tell others ? And use your bully government to enforce y our will ?

I'll bring the weapons and the weed for the after slaughter joint.

The f*ck, ust like an authoritarian. The rules are only for other people. t he repubican congressgritter against abortion until his mistress needs one because of him. Another against Gays until his own son comes out of the clo set. the Claeveland councilman against guns whose Wife got arrested after a home burglary because they did NOT steal the gun, she was in possesion of it. Yeah, give up your rights but I am not giving up mine.

I want a hais sampe to PROVE you ar not abusing any of these drugs. You hav e to PROVE you arre not smoking a joint within the last month to get this m inimum wage job. I want you to PROVE you have never ever done any illegal s ubstance ever, or you lose your social secutrity ! How doee sthat sound ? Y ou know, unike congresscritters and peopleon private pension or PERS, you l ose your social security while incarcerated for a felony.

Well now, because of the increased risk of "terrorism" you have to prove yo u have never ever broken "the law" to get it.

So from now on we are piss testing every kid from age 10 and up to ake sure , and if they smoke one joint they lose their social security, but they sti ll have to pay onto it for all their lives, just never get the benefits.

the rationale for that is we gotta pay for their health care. So we are the boss. Think of it this way, if I sell new cars with a warranty, I have eve ry right to make sure you do the scheduled maintenence during that warrnaty , right ?

See, people like me KILL to prevent shit like that from going too far. Our numbers are growing but we cannot take over yet. there's a guy in NYC who o utlawed certain sodas and frenchfries and he wass not assassinated. That me ans we got alot of work to do educating people about just what the f*ck rig hts really are.

Rights are not what they allow you to do, those are priveledges.

WWe have a high court in Wisconsin that ruled that you do not have the fund amental right to produce and consume the foods of your choice.

I thought we had the right to life. Everything I take in is persuant to mai ntaining and enjoying that life, which belongs to me, not the governemnt. t hey might think so but fukum. Laws agaoinst suicide ? Keep guns out of peop le's hands ? All you need is a plastic bag and a string or rope, and a pair of handcuffs. They don't have to be the real kind, simple loops that do un do easily. What's more, I can do it to someone else and it would be hell ev en finding out how the person died.

Are you REALLY sure you want to stop me from doing what I want to do ? At t he moment I want to not hurt anyone, I do not want to steal, at this point in life if I did not earn it I don't want it. I do not even have enemies re ally, but you can be an instant deasdly enemy if you try to tell me what to do.

I am mindful of other people's rights. When I smoked cigarettes I would hap pily go outside to do it, and weed is the same. Some people don't like guns in their house, I will not carry there. Some people do not like alcohol in their house so I will not drink there.

I am as accomoddating as can be, now acconodate me.

Proof: You really are a fruitcake.