That's because you are a gullible twit, and haven't recognised that most of the arguments you parade have been cribbed from the creationist propaganda you read, but doen't seem to have been able to recognise as creationi8st propaganda.
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Bill Sloman, Sydney
>
> Of course, it's probably impossible to make or use DNA without already
> having all the cellular machinery in place to support DNA, which is
> all created by DNA.
>
>
> --
>
> John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
> picosecond timing precision measurement
>
> jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
> http://www.highlandtechnology.com
Critters that were advanced a billion years after the Big Bang. Maybe
11 billion years ago. That's some head start.
Build robots that mine planets to build robots. It's less absurd than DNA building itself.
The inventor critters could have evolved from inorganics in a more reasonable incremental way than we are supposed to have. They might have originated on a gas giant, or in superfluid helium, or something.
Do you think that human civilization will look the same in 1000, or
100,000 years?
Why don't people believe in evolution?
Why don't people have ideas?
Maybe the old guys were simpler, and invented us for fun.
This isn't sifi. It's reasonable and probable.
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John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
But not having anything heavier than lithium and beryllium would have made it tricky to negotiate the early steps in the evolution of life.
You need to have a had quite a few supernova to get enough of the heavier elements (like carbon and oxygen) to form population one stars.
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Having a head start from a very deep hole isn't all that helpful.
Terrestrial life doesn't make much use of the even heavier elements like iron and cobalt, but they do seem to be essential where they are used.
This does assume rocky planets around population one stars that have enough heavy metals to be worth mining. Not a feature of the early universe.
Has the universe ever been cold enough to allow superfluid helium to form naturally? The background radiation temperature is now down to 2.725 K and superfluid He-4 has to be colder than 2.172K.
Will we have got civilised by then?
They do, but they understand a whole lot more about it than John Larkin can manage.
They do. Some of us have even had patentable ideas, while John Larkin has to settle for having been part of team that had a patentable idea.
It doesn't even qualify as sci-fi. It's pig-ignorant speculation with great gaping weaknesses that reasoning people can gleefully exploit.
I have never seen Jill of the Jungle - how does it compare with Zork?
Chemistry though can be self organising when the right conditions arise and certain clay like minerals look like pretty good templates.
Abiogenisis is at about the same position now as the previous dichotomy in chemistry of vital chemistry vs inorganic chemistry. It was once widely believed that there was something special aka "vitalism" about organic chemicals that could never be replicated by inorganic ones. That was until Wohler synthesised ammonium cyanate and showed that it was identical to urea (the main component of mammalian urine).
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Liebig and Pasteur never abandoned vitalism. Indeed almost none of the old guard did it took almost a generation before it was generally accepted in the chemical literature that you could make organic compounds from inorganic raw materials.
You would doubtless also insist that Stonehenge was built by aliens as a landing pad for flying saucers because it is no longer possible to see the evidence of how stone age man actually constructed it.
RNA is slightly too good to be anything other than the result of molecular evolution itself. It has all the required propertied of being able to make self polymers, catalyse reactions and carry information.
It is possible that a much simpler sugar threose started the ball rolling as the spine of the previous TNA. It is one of the avenues that synthetic chemistry is looking at as a self organising mechanism. It can also transcribe to and from modern DNA with existing enzymes.
Incidentally several very striking non-equilibrium self organising chemical reactions are known which date back as far as Turing although the most curious is probably the Belousov-Zabotinsky reaction.
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and
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Take a look at the pictures even if you don't understand the maths.
Poor Belousov was on the wrong side of the Iron curtain and was unable to get his very counterintuitive reaction published. He gave up chemistry as a result and it was rediscovered by Zabotinsky. It is surprisingly tolerant and a useful educational demo of a very non-linear reaction (it works because the cerium ion is a catalyst for driving the reaction in the opposite direction to its present state).
There are designs that can use the chemical waves to do computations. You can build a nand gate with it which is enough to build a computer.
There are two fundamental solutions with wiring on the front of the sensor and wiring on the back of the sensor. Molluscs and cephalopods chose the best design by pure chance and vertebrates chose the other.
There is a huge activation step to shift from one to the other so having made an arbitrary choice evolution was stuck with making incremental improvements to what it had been given to work with. It is a well known problem in global optimisation that you can very easily get trapped in a good local optimum that is significantly inferior to the global one.
An omniscient intelligent designer would already know that the design for cephalopod eyes was the right way to do it. So why give his "finest" creation a second rate eyes and a third rate sense of smell?
To the best of my knowledge no human has ever mated with a cephalopod or vice versa. It is highly unlikely that there would be any offspring.
I really had in mind environments where a redox chemistry or light is available that provides a source of energy. Even on the bottom of the Mariana trench there is apparently life (much to many peoples surprise - at least some experts reckoned the pressure would be too high there).
I had in mind the observation that if for some reason an isolated population develops for a long period then some of them will diversify to target newly available resources. The US hawthorn maggot targetting apples newly introduced to the USA being one such example and already well on the way to becoming a new species in less than 200 years.
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Cichlid fish in the great rift alley are another example.
If there is no competition for some of the available resources then something will eventually evolve to take advantage of that gap.
Now that we have much better diagnostics for finiding life DNA we can find archaea and bacteria living very very slowly in deep mine rocks. Indeed there is an exobiology laboratory inside our nearby deepest mine in Europe along with the dark matter laboratory. They are practising novel very sensitive techniques for looking life on Mars/Europa.
That is actually a very nice way to describe it in terms that an engineer ought to be able to understand.
There are also a hierarchy of quines depending on how pure you require them to be. The purest will work on any computer system that compiles the language irrespective of the machine representation of characters.
The next level uses some dodgy line counting tricks to decide how to output itself but will still run anywhere.
The weakest ones will only work on the platform that they were coded for with ASCII or EBCDIC of other explicit constants escaped in to the code.
They are all quines but some are more elegant than others. >
It is certainly known how to make a glider gun by colliding together 8 gliders and gun designs are know for all periods >14.
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A glider gun gun might require a rather large universe to construct one.
I agree. It would be a rather large pattern though and still remains to be found.
I think it really depends on how strictly you interpret the definition of life. I tend to think of them as not quite alive since they only consist of a package of genetic information waiting for a host.
It may well be that some essential components of life are present in almost everything alive. Gene sequencing will eventually tell us.
They thought that disease was spread by bad smells. Not an entirely unreasonable idea. Leeuwenhook and later Hooke had seen animicules but no-one had associated some of them with being pathogens.
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It has been long known that drinking weak beer was preferable to water. It wasn't until 1854 that someone proved that cholera was a water borne infection by halting an outbreak in London. Even with the pathogen identified people were still inclined to blame miasma.
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Our star is about 5e9 years old. The first generation of stars in the galaxy have to burn out and go supernova before there are the raw materials for life. They are likely to be big heavy and fast burning.
It is possible life arises everywhere that has the right raw materials but only gets truly interesting in a handful of places. We do not yet know whether the Earth is a rare example of intelligent life or not.
I am inclined to think that life as in coloured slime will pop up anywhere there are the right resources for it to arise.
Roughly a rocky planet not too big with a surface temperature around
300K, all three phases of water and plenty of organics and phosphates. It might be possible for life to arise under a much wider range of conditions but unless and until we find an example the one thing we can be certain of is that our planet has life.
Life on Earth went through several critical gateways of near extinction and explosive recolonisation. We might all be intelligent technological lizards but for a cataclysmic impact that killed off all the dinosaurs.
Evolution is still going on. We are top dog for the moment but if we screw it up and render the planet into a scorched nuclear wasteland then insects will get their chance. Copper based blood is much more resistant to radiation damage and an exoskeleton helps stop alpha particles.
When I was a kid there were many references to "protoplasm" being the ingredient that separated non-living things from living thing.
I remember trying to find out what "protoplasm" actually was, and never finding a definition other than that. I.e. magick designed to allow "informed" people to let listeners (cf thinkers) to think there was any understanding.
And, of course, the amino acids from soup+lightning thing :)
It does seem that way, i.e. I don't understand it => nobody understands it => it cannot be understood.
I wonder if John would accept a theologian making such statements about electronics.
That is far too soon after the Big Bang. The early universe was a more violent place with a lot of rapid star formation and supernovae sterilising chunks of space. Intelligent life took about 4bn years to evolve on Earth even with allegedly some help from these wizards.
The first time around it is very very unlikely that they will achieve our level of complexity inside 5bn years. We still do not have anything that is realistically capable of interstellar travel either.
Fermi probes. The problem is that if they existed they should be fairly common so why haven't we seen any?
You really do have absolutely no physical intuition whatsoever.
It might still be recognisable in another 1000 years. But in 100k years humans could very well be back to the pathetic hand to mouth existence of the Easter Islanders after they had destroyed their very last tree.
We had better hope that some passing space faring nation do find us before we completely trash the planet or the insects will get their turn (they are already among the most numerous).
It is you who are fighting against evolution and insisting on arbitrary complex explanations for what is almost certainly a non-problem. We may not yet have a complete explanation of how and when life arose but that doesn't mean that you can invent crazy "just so" stories willy-nilly.
Most people here have a reasonable grasp of physics and chemistry.
The difference is that whereas a virus absolutely depends on its target host for replication the bacteria and archaea are fully self contained.
It copies imperfectly and so can evolve. That is true. But on its own it only has the power to infect particular target host cells. If there are no suitable host cells remaining then it is effectively inert.
I think they have also been shown to evolve as they jumped the species barrier into humans. That scrapie had never done so gave us a false sense of security and John Selwyn Gummer force feeding his granddaughter with a beefburger was caught on camera.
Thanks to BSE I could no longer donate blood when I lived overseas.
It was back in the care free days when they really did go out of their way to put the junk into "junk food" for humans and for animals. What was surprising was how quickly something took advantage of the niche.
Sorry, "more reasonable" way? What does that mean???
People do believe in evolution. Idiots don't believe in the scientific evi dence behind evolution.
Sorry? Are you being introspective here?
LOL! So where are these "old guys"? Like on Star Gate, the ancients are l ong gone? They made us and died?
Or maybe they are still around and manipulating use for their amusement lik e in the Randy Newman song.
John may think the idea of life having been created by "old guys" is "reaso nable", but he seems to be ignorant that it is totally untestable.
I don't typically bother with such discussions with friends other than to p oint out the futility of trying to prove it one way or the other since we w ill gain knowledge in this area very slowly. Anyone who insists either ide a is impossible is not in possession of the facts. But it is totally clear there is no evidence supporting creationism. It has to be accepted on fai th.
When people ask me why I don't believe in god I reply that if god cared if I believed in him he would simply let me know that in a way a mere mortal c an understand. I don't believe anyone so omnipotent would have to hide his presence so that he would need to be "believed" in on faith alone. If he wants me to know he is there I'm sure he will tap me on the shoulder and te ll me.
--
Rick C.
-+--- Get a 5,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
JL's talents include designing analog electronics at the board level, drink ing beer and eating burgers. He is largely ignorant of the greater world a nd chooses to remain that way. Are you really surprised at this point?
Humans will not be different in any significant way in 1,000 years. Are we any different than we were 1,000 years ago? But it is a pointless questio n for this conversation. JL is suggesting that evolution will make major i nroads into our existance while it was highly improbable that the current D NA replication process could have evolved in a billion years. Huh?
In other words, his mind is blown!
--
Rick C.
-+--+ Get a 5,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
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