charge an american device in Europe

| Why 100v? He specifically stated that it was a 120v appliance from America.

Devices made for the US market have barely enough iron at 60 Hz. At 50 Hz they almost inevitably die. It's a fundamental law of electricity.

N

Interesting article in todays Wall Street Journal. It seems that manufacturers are shipping equipment with region-specific power supplies lately. It seems that want to prevent folks in Europe (and other places) from taking advantage of the cheap US dollar and buying here instead of at home.

They pointed out that although it is cheaper to build one version of a product with a multi-voltage power supply (particularly if its an SMPS), that lets too many people buy products on the gray market.

There was a sad example of a guy in Fiji who plugged in a brand new iMac G5, only to discover that Apple no longer provided multi-voltage power input.

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain

I figured that, while the quantities are higher if you're just building a universal input switcher, the US/Japanese market alone is big enough that the savings you get on saving a few pennies by needing lower voltage rated transformers and other components still made it cheaper to build 110-125V only versions of power supplies...

It'd be surprising if he blew more than just the power supply. Disappointing, yes, but not _too_ spendy to fix.

If the manufacturers really are trying to use this tactic to reduce gray market sales, while it probably will be somewhat effective, hard core users will just buy inexpensive voltage conversion transformers. Additionally, manufacturers will to some degree be shooting themselves in the foot, since it's primarily the 'first tier' manufacturers who have such sophisticated marketing plans in place anyway, and many consumers will start looking at 'second tier' alternatives that will then have universal input power supplies anyway. (I.e., sure, Apple could be successful at this since they're the only company making Macs, but not PC companies...)

It would be really evil if the electronics started sensing the line frequency and refused to operate on, e.g., 50Hz if the product were destined for a 60Hz country.

---Joel Kolstad

I wouldn't have thought that would be fatal - they use 240V mains there.

Ken

From experience...you're just wrong. There may be some devices which will smoke from 60 vs. 50 Hz, but I would guess they are in the distinct minority.

Do you have some direct experience which supports you contention?

jak

I myself have had this experience. I have also had clients have the same experience. This is if you take an American device using a power transformer, and use it on 50 Hz, when it was designed for 60 Hz only. At 50 Hz the unit will run hotter. If the transformer is working at near to its capacity at 60 Hz, when working at 50 Hz, it will run very hot. The lower the mains frequency, the hotter it will run.

If you have a transformer that is designed to work at 50 Hz, and it is run on 60 Hz, it will not heat up as much. In fact, it may run more efficiently at a higher mains frequency. I will certainly run a bit cooler, and may have a longer life span.

Some types of switching power supplies are also critical to the mains frequency. These are the ones that are using an input voltage multiplier circuit in them. If the mains frequency is lowered, its efficiency will be effected.

--

Jerry G.
=====

"jakdedert"  wrote in message
news:2VBHd.46367$Zv5.2453@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
NSM wrote:
> "jakdedert"  wrote in message
> news:c8DGd.19686$BP1.103@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
>> Why 100v?  He specifically stated that it was a 120v appliance from
>> America.
>
> Devices made for the US market have barely enough iron at 60 Hz. At
> 50 Hz they almost inevitably die. It's a fundamental law of
> electricity.
>
From experience...you're just wrong.  There may be some devices which will
smoke from 60 vs. 50 Hz, but I would guess they are in the distinct
minority.

Do you have some direct experience which supports you contention?

jak

> N

Not IME. Sure they run a little hotter, that's just physics, but I've yet to see one melt down...and it's nowhere near as inevitable as NSM seems to intimate.

It may have at that. But to state emphatically that it absolutely *will* melt down and burn if run on 50 Hz, simply because it was sold for the U.S. market is just wrong. I've had too many devices run for too many hours in exactly that situation to believe that. *None of them* melted down, or even got uncomfortably hot.

Most of my European experience was in the 80's when most wall warts were simply transformers with rectifiers....

jak

I understand Murphy...he's a permanent resident here. My line voltage varies from 101v (my house) to just under 125v (my shop/office). That's immaterial. The issue is the line voltage where I've run these devices...sometimes up to 240v in England--on a cheap transformer--not a single meltdown. The stepup transformer, OTOH got a little warm.....

jak

| From experience...you're just wrong. There may be some devices which will | smoke from 60 vs. 50 Hz, but I would guess they are in the distinct | minority. | | Do you have some direct experience which supports you contention?

I can mail you some if you will pay for S&H. I first became aware of this when we started importing Radio Shack Model I's into NZ which has nominally

230 VAC 50 Hz. Their little power supplies all died, which we tracked down to running them at 115 VAC 50 Hz. Running them on 100 VAC led to a long life and no tedious rewinding.

Unless it says 50/60 don't try it. You will regret it.

N

| Not IME. Sure they run a little hotter, that's just physics, but I've yet | to see one melt down...and it's nowhere near as inevitable as NSM seems to | intimate. .... | It may have at that. But to state emphatically that it absolutely *will* | melt down and burn if run on 50 Hz, simply because it was sold for the U.S. | market is just wrong. I've had too many devices run for too many hours in | exactly that situation to believe that. *None of them* melted down, or even | got uncomfortably hot. ....

What is your line voltage? BTW, as far as "absolutely *will*", remember Murphy?

N

Yikes, I'd be worried about such a large variation, I'd be calling the power company if my line voltage was under 110 or over 125, but in practice it's always been within a volt or two of 120v.

| I understand Murphy...he's a permanent resident here. My line voltage | varies from 101v (my house) to just under 125v (my shop/office). That's | immaterial. The issue is the line voltage where I've run these | devices...sometimes up to 240v in England--on a cheap transformer--not a | single meltdown. The stepup transformer, OTOH got a little warm.....

If you get away with it, great, but I have seen way too many of the little buggers go t*ts up. Of course if you wanted them to burn out they never would.

N

I read in sci.electronics.design that jakdedert wrote (in ) about 'DANGER: Charge an american device in Europe', on Wed, 19 Jan 2005:

US transformers are presumably designed to accommodate some over-voltage at 60 Hz, e.g. 130 V. If you run such a transformer on half of European

230 V, which may actually be either 110 V or 120 V, depending on country, you are not hitting it very hard. 130 x 50/60 = 108 V.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. 
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Often the transformer works for either 120 or 240; it is simply a matter of how the wires/terminals are connected. (Then the manufacturer only has to stock one type of transformer for both the US and Europe.) So you might want to look at it. You may be able to simply rewire and replace the plug. I've done the reverse--taken euro stuff and rewire the transformer for the US and re-plugged it. No problems.

What is your time worth?

Feeding it with 3V may harm the trimmer. Feeding it with 1.5V might not work. Many of those dirt cheap variable adapters are unregulated; when set to 1.5V the output voltage may be much higher than that, depending on the load. The is no way of telling how well it will work with out knowing technical constuction details of the trimmer and the adapter. In other words: your milleage may vary.

You are not feeding it 1000mA. The trimmer draws 1100mA which is more than the adapter can provide (1000mA). This in turn may overheat and/or damage the adapter.

If you go for option a the line frequency does not matter since the adapter will rectify the current before it gets to the trimmer. If you go for option b the original transformer could get saturated due to the lower frequency, though probably it will work.

Buy a trimmer in Europe, it is probably the cheapest and best solution.

--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl